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Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

wsj.com

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Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#81

Post by someweirdperson »

camillomiller wrote: post #14
seydor wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s what "european governments say" that putin thinks, not what he thinks. He is always looking for ways to use EU rules against itself, and thanks to lots of regulations, EU has tied itself in a knot here. Also i don't think you re right. Europeans were fine with "let yemenis die" , and fine with "let armenians die" becuase of oil and gas respectively.

Those are not our people (non christian, non white). Ukrainians are. There is absolutely a difference that could be called racism, or more keenly it’s the fact that people are moved more by what they consider more close and similar to themselves. Just to be clear, I think that’s wrong, but I wouldn’t compare those two examples with Ukraine.

The difference is that their defence works. When the war started, everyone assumed Russia would take over quickly, and things would go back to normal (for western countries, not Ukraine). But no, it did not end quickly, ooops. Now they need help, weapons start to be delivered. Still no-one really believing that they would repel Russia, so just some simple defensive items to show support. 200 days forward, they are actively pushing back, and this is used as a reason to discuss delivery of even more heavy weapons (now MBTs).

It's as if they need to prove that they are worth to be supported, instead of deploying what is needed as early as possible.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#82

Post by [deleted] »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #6
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #3

> European governments say Mr. Putin’s gambit is to cut natural-gas supplies to inflict pain on European households and businesses so populations turn against current government policies of sanctions against Russia and support for Ukraine with weapons and financial aid. He's so terribly wrong. He doesn't know Europeans at all. There is no way people would say, "We are cold so it is fine to kill Ukrainians." How could…

It’s a lot more complicated to be honest. There are different ways to end the conflicts and different degrees of support possible. Some European countries were in favour of pushing for peace talks far earlier but the current Ukrainian government has complete support from the USA and territorial ambition of its own. Belligerents are not into it out of the goodness of their heart you know. It’s not really about saving…

[deleted]

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#84

Post by ptr »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #78
samus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peace talks before Russia is pushed back at least to Ukraine's post-2014 borders is basically a victory for Russia, and we would have this conversation again in 5-10 years.

Peace talks could have involved a return to post-2014 borders as a condition. At this point it’s science-fiction anyway and it’s becoming clear that Ukraine wants to take back Crimea. I don’t know nor have access to the information necessary to judge if it would have been better for the population. I just deeply dislike the narrative which pushes the Ukrainian conflict as an unambiguous fight between the forces of go…

Ukrainians in occupied territories seem to get murdered, tortured and raped. So yeah I think it’s fair to say they’d be better off without the Russians.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#85

Post by [deleted] »

kstenerud wrote: post #19
vixen99 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expensive solution even so. In Romania (One of Europe's poorest countries) this month's price for a kilowatt is 57 cents (if you use > 300 kw per month on average). The UK price is about 36 pence per kw (41 cents).

It's going up to 36 cents in Germany come October. I've proactively replaced some perfectly functional but energy guzzling equipment with modern efficient ones, and it has dropped my consumption by over 30%, which will more than negate the energy cost increase. The break-even cost on them ranges from 1-4 years.

[deleted]

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#86

Post by Heyso »

Putin tells Europe: if you want gas then open Nord Stream 2

"President Vladimir Putin on Friday denied Russia had anything to do with Europe's energy crisis, saying that if the European Union wanted more gas it should lift sanctions preventing the opening of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline.

Speaking to reporters after the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Uzbekistan, Putin blamed what he called "the green agenda" for the energy crisis, and insisted that Russia would fulfil its energy obligations.

"The bottom line is, if you have an urge, if it's so hard for you, just lift the sanctions on Nord Stream 2, which is 55 billion cubic metres of gas per year, just push the button and everything will get going," Putin said."

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/russias-putin-says-m...

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#87

Post by mellavora »

dijit wrote: post #42
mellavora wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You list several examples where people are selfish. In many cases, the selfishness is not inherent in people, it is a combination of the setup of the system and social norms. Using your "boarding a plane" example. Compare boarding a Ryan Air flight from Frankfurt/Hahn to a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt am Main. Specifically these two, because Germany still has a somewhat cohesive culture/cultural identity, and one…

I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as that. I flew from Munich to Copenhagen on Friday with Lufthansa. I was on an aisle seat and was deadlocked twice while leaving the plane, there were also people crowding the luggage conveyor belt, which is why those examples come to mind. It’s not about cheap vs expensive or culture vs nature: humans have the capacity to be altruistic, but it seems quite common to be selfish.

no, it is exactly culture vs nature.

we can cultivate a high trust society in which altrusism is the norm, or we can cultivate a low trust society where selfishness is the norm.

I chose the airport examples to match the parent observations. I've seen other examples, for example driving patterns. I remember the one summer (actually about a 2 week period) when Minnesota when from "almost no-one cuts in line to get off the freeway" to "everyone tries to push their way through traffic". And just like that, 30 years of high trust is gone.

The famous Marshmallow Test. Do the kids have high trust or low trust in the authority figure to give them 2 marshmallows?

On a positive example, the (US) military puts a lot of emphasis on high-trust.

We are sadly living in an age where the increasing power of money (as "portable reputation") vs reputation based on people respecting what you've contributed to society heavily rewards low trust. Because it doesn't matter as much how you got the money, it just matters that you have it. That, plus the unequal wealth distribution, creates envy and distrust.

And money scales to current population levels. Personal reputation does not.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#88

Post by diimdeep »

yread wrote: post #74
diimdeep wrote: post #71

Who is at War exactly ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#US_sanctions_and... [2] > Alternatives to Russian supplies—including LNG from the U.S. and other countries

Depends who you ask: Russia: NATO is at war with us. We're not at war with anyone cause it's a special military operation Everyone else: Russia and Ukraine are at war

> Depends who you ask:

Well, you will hear some opinion, based on some perspective. Almost always it is not whole truth, but a subset of facts.

But there is so much more at play.

What bothers me is how western news manipulative and no one really notice. News giving everyone a subset of facts, while omitting others, not painting the entire truth. They are not lying, but at the same time manipulate opinion of a large population.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#89

Post by Hamuko »

Heyso wrote: post #86

Putin tells Europe: if you want gas then open Nord Stream 2 "President Vladimir Putin on Friday denied Russia had anything to do with Europe's energy crisis, saying that if the European Union wanted more gas it should lift sanctions preventing the opening of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Speaking to reporters after the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Uzbekistan, Putin blamed what he called "the green agenda…

It's kinda hard to take the proposal seriously when Gazprom has been cutting the amount of gas transmitted through Nord Steam 1 throughout the year. Last I heard was that Nord Steam 1 was delivering 25% of its intended capacity.

Re: Putin’s Energy War with Europe Seems to Falter

#90

Post by ptr »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #54
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently Russia was more or less neutral. Now that it showed its aggressive face and complete contempt of human lives, people are happy that it gets weaker and weaker. Yes, Ukrainians are dying, but they prefer to die rather than live under the Russian boot.

Many Ukrainians actually tried to leave Ukraine but they were forbidden to do so under a sexist policy that forced them to join the army.

This isn’t unique to Ukraine. As an example, all Swedes are required by law to help out in case of an invasion.
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