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Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

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Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

German here. Not entirely sure what your comment is trying to convey. Germany doesn’t have that much of a free-speech history, at least compared to the US. So the fact that publicly denying or trivializing the holocaust has been illegal (since 1949, I figure) is not seen as dystopian at all. On the contrary, the ban is even widely accepted, and perceived as a good thing. Mind clarifying a bit as to what exactly you’r…

You can defend it all you want with "historical precedent," it's still quite dystopian whether or not conditioning for 70 years has any impact. My point is that any law against free speech probably has more sinister intentions than are presented.

"Do you have any proof?"

Read 1984 and try to understand how close laws against holocaust denial are to thought crimes.

You really don't understand what part of the timeline we're in. Time is running out.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#192
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referre...

Devil's advocate here (I won't comment on if I agree with the argument or not), but this article seems to miss the point of the section 230 debate. All of the stuff here is about what the law is now. The objection most people have is that it shouldn't be like this and we need to change or remove section 230. It specifically allows sites to be biased while also not holding them legally accountable for anything they ch…

I tend to agree with you - getting rid of section 230 or limiting it to certain types of content providers based on some certain metric would be ideal.

I've been doing some thinking and it seems to me like Section 230 being repealed would be disastrous for smaller websites/startups/content creators.

If I create a small-scale forum - I am now legally responsible for what is posted on that platform and can be sued repeatedly into the ground until I'm not able to continue running my business/forum/whatever. If someone has the capital to do that and a mission to remove me from the internet, then they're able to.

With section 230, it has that "monkey's paw" style penalty. Sure, it would be nice to go after social media companies that continuously abuse their power and act on behalf of the government to control what you can say, when you can say it, but then you'd also potentially open up a bunch of legal trouble for smaller outlets.

If there was a way to enact something where above a certain threshold, section 230 no longer applies to your company and you need to be responsible for the content on your platform - maybe that would be ideal, but I don't know what that threshold would be - profits, incorporated vs LLC vs sole proprietorship, I'm not sure.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#193

This is because Facebook is a Publisher. They will never admit it but FB/META can decide what users can see. This is the what a Publisher does. The issue we have is that if you let the users decide what is shown on any platform it would be quite a mess.

There are UX solutions to the problem of a messy feed. Let me go and choose my exclusion filters if I so choose.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#194
post #34

The problem is that no automatic method we have now will catch context. There is a difference between "Jews were murdered by Germans during war" and "Jews destroyed German economy before the war" that will not be recognized by any machine we have nowadays. The first is true, the second is bullshit, how algorithm can now this? More, even if Facebook employees humans to do moderation still for some contractor from Asia…

> The problem is that no automatic method we have now will catch context.

I disagree. The problem is that nobody is willing to be realistic about the limitations of automated moderation and proceed accordingly.

If we can't create an automatic method that catches context, the solution isn't to bemoan that AI can't magically do what we want. The solution is to remove the rules that require AI to understand context in the first place, because it is fundamentally outside of our technical ability, and any attempt to achieve it will fail.

The problem is people who think that context-based censorship is reasonable for a massive platform. It simply is not. It is reasonable at an individual level. It is reasonable at an interpersonal level. It's even reasonable at a small-group level, where specific individual human beings who are invested in the community can be aware of these context issues.

It is not reasonable at Facebook scale, full stop. Facebook should not be in the business of deciding to ban things like this. That is a responsibility that belongs at a lower level. What does that look like in practice?

If an individual posted it on their wall:

* That individual uses their judgement and chooses to post it or not

* The people who see it use their judgement and click the block button if they don't like it

If an individual posted it in a small group:

* The group can socially police such actions by commenting that they are upset by it

* The group's administrators can privately reach out to the person who posted it, explain that they can't post such things in that group, explain why, and explain what actions they could take to remain in good graces

* The group's administration can make a judgement call and remove the post, not on the basis of crude keyword detection, but on the basis of human understanding

If an individual posted in a large group:

* The large group can adopt clear and unambiguous rules that do not require context to administer, and enforce them accordingly on a case-by-case basis

* The large group can pre-commit to not dealing with such issues, and require their members to deal with it privately, like human beings

Trying to automate this process will always fail, and it will cause massive false-positive and false-negative issues as it does so. Engineers used to understand these concepts when I first entered industry 20 years ago. It's very disappointing to me that they either can't or won't now.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#195

Does anyone know if these decisions are made by U.S. based checkers, or is it outsourced? When FB does something so asinine like this I must consider that it’s a horrible cubicle farm in S.E. Asia.

I bet you my now defunct and cobwebbed Facebook account that they're using AI algorithms for large-scale content moderation, with individual "suspect" cases being forwarded to an Amazon Mechanical Turk style place where people make pennies on the dollar following strict lists of instructions where any deviation or any leeway in free-thought is punished by immediate dismissal.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn't a king of the hill match, if some loonies managed to take over the capitol they'd just get siege'd out. How do you honestly think this would go? they take the capitol and trump shows up and says "im the president for another term" then everyone goes home and ignores the corpse of Mike Pence?

> How do you honestly think this would go? They destroy the certifications of the electoral votes from the states (as almost happened[0]), causing various states to (disingenuously) disagree about how to replace the lost documents. Enough FUD (and lawsuits, and delays) would be generated during this period of public disorientation that the Republican party could exploit the ambiguity of the Constitutional phrase "a m…

So your thinking is that the republican party, which by and large already disagreed with trump(to the extent a republican was the alleged "target" of the riot), would side with him after his supporters murder Mike Pence, said republican?

You can dislike republicans all you want but this is just another level.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#199
These type of editorial / advertising approval decisions happened all the time before the internet took over media. Just FB/Twitter gets crucified when they do it because they pretend to not be publishers but utilities.

Time to admit all these hosting sites are just publishers that use ML models as editors and their users as contributors and section 230 needs to be re-written to account for it.

Re: Facebook bans Holocaust film for violating race policy

#200
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ghostbuster's 2016's supposed "anti-feminism " campaign is an example of this. It's very common and has been forever, since at least newspapers.

Is there evidence that the misogyny was faked by the movie industry? Or are we just assuming that all such reactions (e.g. the anti-black Ariel folks) are faked to generate support?

The reactions arent necessarily fake, its much more that they hunt out and push those (very small number) for the sake of publicity; and to offset and undermine the credibility of critics.

No one really hears any attacks against GB 2016's critics now, but before release, they were all tantamount to racists and sexists.

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