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European natural gas imports and storage reserves

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Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#91

Post by dnh44 »

distances wrote: post #51
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> We should all be lobbying for a large neutral buffer zone between US-aligned Europe and Russia As long as that buffer is inside Russia, I would be fine with it as I suppose most others would. It's not OK to suggest that countries can have a sphere of influence in 21st century. Each country chooses their alignment and alliance independently. Russia has repeatedly shown to be a poor neighbour, so it shouldn't be a su…

Do you not think that the US has a huge sphere of influence? It seems to me that the US can and does take any action it wishes to outside its borders. Sometimes those actions have a good moral justification and sometimes they don’t.

>US and Russia simply can not agree between themselves what should be Ukraine's place in the world.

I’ll argue the opposite. The Ukraine has no inherent right to join NATO. Ukraine isn’t going to join NATO unless the US wants it to join and this is morally correct in every way considering the obligations of article 5. Additionally every other NATO member has the right to veto expanding the alliance (this is fact btw not opinion).

Additionally the US has every right to negotiate with Russia over Ukraine joining should the US wish to.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#92

Post by blub »

modo_mario wrote: post #43
gdy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. " Russia learnt that it cannot trust West when NATO started expanding into Eastern Europe and ex-USSR not too long after Warsaw pact and the USSR dissolved. Quite strange to say that West 'trusted' Russia after it betrayed Russia.

Verbal face to face agreements that go against the explicit wish of the countries involved which you give no agency? Should a finger be pointed at the agreement regarding Ukraine giving up the USSR nukes?

Such agreements are based on trust and if that’s gone both parties stand to lose a lot. The kind of global challenges we will meet can only be tackled by having the US, Russia, China, India, the EU work together.

Pointing out that it was a verbal agreement is correct, but is missing the bigger point. This is not just a technical gotcha, the future of humanity is at stake.

Those countries which wanted to join have agency, but they don’t decide if they are accepted or not. The US does, with a few other big players. The rest rubber stamp what was decided by the big boys.

Finally, both the US and Russia had an interest in those nukes not staying in Ukraine. In fact the Ukrainians changed their mind at the last moment, but they were more or less forced/bribed to take the agreement.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#93

Post by dnh44 »

The_Colonel wrote: post #68
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> We should all be lobbying for a large neutral buffer zone between US-aligned Europe and Russia, not expanding the alliance designed to destroy Russia towards Moscow. Ukraine was neutral before 2014, somehow it didn't help. It didn't get invaded because they were about to join NATO, but because they started to orient themselves to the EU. What you actually argue for, and what Putin is after, is to let Russia re-buil…

The NATO Bucharest Declaration of 2008 mentioned Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#94

Post by The_Colonel »

arcbyte wrote: post #78
gdy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. " Russia learnt that it cannot trust West when NATO started expanding into Eastern Europe and ex-USSR not too long after Warsaw pact and the USSR dissolved. Quite strange to say that West 'trusted' Russia after it betrayed Russia.

There was a real hope Russia would join NATO at one point. That it has devolved back into the primary threat was never a foregone or even straightforward conclusion.

It's very unclear if Russia being in NATO would change anything in its imperialistic tendencies. Wouldn't it be, after all, the best chance to destroy NATO from within?

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#95

Post by pydry »

distances wrote: post #77
pydry wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not OK to suggest that countries can have a sphere of influence in 21st century Ask your Congressman about pulling out of Guam and closing all overseas military bases. >That kind of world order does not exist any more. This is, ironically, enough, something that Putin started saying to us since he came into power. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. He lobbied the west to adhere to a rules based international order…

> Ask your Congressman about pulling out of Guam and closing all overseas military bases. I'm from a small country by the Russian northern border, so I don't have anything to do with Guam but of course do have pretty strong opinions about who should be able to dictate our future.

This probably means that your country (maybe reluctantly, maybe not) lent its support to the Iraqi occupation under pressure from the US government.

That was due to those competing spheres of influence.

When you join a criminal gang for protection youve gotta prove your loyalty to the top dog and respect his power.

The dynamics arent all that different to when a 15 year old kid joins a gang in south central - sometimes after demonstrating loyalty he gets protection and sometimes he gets chewed up and spat out as cannon fodder in a wider turf war.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#96

Post by stonemetal12 »

Bayart wrote: post #27
KptMarchewa wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We need serious attempts and ongoing discussion about how to stop military escalation. History has shown us that appeasement is the worst possible policy.

Has it ? What's the data point, beyond Hitler ? Because History has shown repeatedly and consistently that escalation is reckless and extremely costly.

Native Americans appeased the US till there was nothing left. You don't tend to see many appeasers around because there is nothing left of them.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#97

Post by The_Colonel »

blub wrote: post #80
stoltzmann wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has been invading it's neighbors for centuries. Eastern Europeans do remember that. Joining NATO is not only about the conflict today, it's due to pretty much all generations in the area suffering due to their aggressive neighbor further to the east.

Nearly every country in Europe has been invading its neighbors for centuries, that’s what normal looks like in Europe. In fact some countries liked invasions so much, that they invaded countries all over the world. Joining NATO is not at all only up to the countries which apply. The US is more or less the game maker, with big countries like Germany, France, the UK etc. also having an important voice. It’s not unexpec…

> Nearly every country in Europe has been invading its neighbors for centuries

We don't need to go into that long history. Most of these CEE countries have been invaded by Russia in the last 100 years.

> It’s not unexpected that the former Warsaw Pact countries would want to join. It is surprising to see the US being so short-sighted to allow these expansions considering that several of its own diplomats and foreign policy experts were warning against it.

It actually worked out well. Not letting e.g. Baltics into NATO/EU would almost certainly mean they have been already absorbed back into Russia. The rest of CEE would be vassalized.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#98

Post by The_Colonel »

dnh44 wrote: post #93
The_Colonel wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should all be lobbying for a large neutral buffer zone between US-aligned Europe and Russia, not expanding the alliance designed to destroy Russia towards Moscow. Ukraine was neutral before 2014, somehow it didn't help. It didn't get invaded because they were about to join NATO, but because they started to orient themselves to the EU. What you actually argue for, and what Putin is after, is to let Russia re-buil…

The NATO Bucharest Declaration of 2008 mentioned Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

Again, Ukraine was nowhere near to joining NATO in 2008, 2014 or 2022.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#99

Post by KptMarchewa »

js8 wrote: post #63
iSnow wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's the data point, beyond Hitler ? Ukraine 2014. The West should have stopped Russia back then and there.

How do you show that such action would lead to fewer deaths and less suffering?

Slaves minimize their deaths by not revolting. However, powerful support of their freedom by Union states led to far better world than the one without American Civil War.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#100

Post by blub »

The_Colonel wrote: post #68
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> We should all be lobbying for a large neutral buffer zone between US-aligned Europe and Russia, not expanding the alliance designed to destroy Russia towards Moscow. Ukraine was neutral before 2014, somehow it didn't help. It didn't get invaded because they were about to join NATO, but because they started to orient themselves to the EU. What you actually argue for, and what Putin is after, is to let Russia re-buil…

AFAIK the reason why Ukraine wasn’t invited to join back then were objections from France and Germany. The US were courting them and lobbying for them to join.

This is a classic escalation spiral, where flirtations between Ukraine and NATO triggered Russian aggression which in turn intensified the collaboration of NATO and Ukraine. And so on and so forth.

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