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European natural gas imports and storage reserves

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Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#21

Post by KptMarchewa »

roenxi wrote: post #13
bhaak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What diplomatic off ramp does Russia need? There is a simple first step towards redemption and that is get out of Ukraine right now. Better yesterday. Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Eastern Europe tried to hammer that point into the brains of the other European politicians but it didn't work until now.

There were a bunch of people making a deal about how we'd gone out and done piracy to Russian yachts, legal questions be damned. If there are any options people are not looking for them. There'll be something. > Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Do you recall what happened to people who trusted the British? A lot of them died. And they were almost the nice Europeans. Trusting t…

>We need serious attempts and ongoing discussion about how to stop military escalation.

History has shown us that appeasement is the worst possible policy.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#22

Post by KptMarchewa »

rjzzleep wrote: post #9
roenxi wrote: post #6

Economies, when left alone, are about as resilient as cockroaches and much more brutal about securing themselves. The situation is a serious blow to the pride of the European politicians who look like they've been mishandling energy policy for years (where are the nuclear reactors?). But realistically they'll probably survive in practice. It'll be painful. The issue is that somehow the West has taken Iraq 2.0 and is…

What you're describing is basically why Kissinger et al lobbied to kick out Taiwan from the UN, lobbied to shut down Taiwan's nuclear weapons program at the UN and worked so hard to intertwine US and Chinese economies. It's also the reason why Kissinger had that speech and the WEF advising the political leadership of the west to change course. It doesn't really matter though, there seems to be no way to have a reason…

>What you're describing is basically why Kissinger et al lobbied to kick out Taiwan from the UN, lobbied to shut down Taiwan's nuclear weapons program at the UN and worked so hard to intertwine US and Chinese economies.

Which turned out to be worst of possible policies.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#23

Post by KptMarchewa »

rjzzleep wrote: post #17
starkd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, there are many who got it wrong on China. Not just Kissinger. Many made a lot of money off of China as an emerging market. Trying to calm the situation down in Ukraine is to his credit. Few seem to be calling for a ceasefire. On the contrary, they seem to doing all they can to scuttle any kind of agreement.

I don't like the guy, and I absolutely don't agree with most of what him and his administration did. But the one thing that they got right(which every person outside of the collective west seems to understand) is that only a complete madman would throw the biggest nuclear power, the biggest natural resource country and the biggest missile manufacturer in the world right into the arms of the biggest manufacturing powe…

>throw

Russia is responsible for it's own action. It's not a weird state machine reacting to "western" actions and applying appropriate response.

Russia was given everything they possibly could be given to become part of "the west" - growing, democratic nation, like many of the nation they formerly occupied. Instead they choose kleptocracy, mafia state ruled by the guy who bombed apartment buildings in his own country to become president - and it only went downhill from there.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#25

Post by roenxi »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #21
roenxi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a bunch of people making a deal about how we'd gone out and done piracy to Russian yachts, legal questions be damned. If there are any options people are not looking for them. There'll be something. > Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Do you recall what happened to people who trusted the British? A lot of them died. And they were almost the nice Europeans. Trusting t…

>We need serious attempts and ongoing discussion about how to stop military escalation. History has shown us that appeasement is the worst possible policy.

The future will show large nuclear arsenals are the worst policy. It is not the 1930s and Russia is not Germany. The borders of the USSR have retreated over most of our lifetime, Moscow controlled all of Ukraine as recently as 1990 and gave it up more-or-less voluntarily.

If the US can invade the middle east and not be called an authoritarian regime, I don't think we need to draw a red line at the Ukraine border against the other nuclear superpower. And we should be negotiating.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#26

Post by The_Colonel »

rjzzleep wrote: post #17
starkd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, there are many who got it wrong on China. Not just Kissinger. Many made a lot of money off of China as an emerging market. Trying to calm the situation down in Ukraine is to his credit. Few seem to be calling for a ceasefire. On the contrary, they seem to doing all they can to scuttle any kind of agreement.

I don't like the guy, and I absolutely don't agree with most of what him and his administration did. But the one thing that they got right(which every person outside of the collective west seems to understand) is that only a complete madman would throw the biggest nuclear power, the biggest natural resource country and the biggest missile manufacturer in the world right into the arms of the biggest manufacturing powe…

Do you believe that if we've let Russia to take Ukraine, Putin would become the West's best friend?

Or maybe that's not enough and return to 1997 NATO borders would be necessary?

Or perhaps that would not be enough and return to the 1988 geopolitical situation would be necessary to make Putin a friend of the West?

What if even that wouldn't make Putin a western ally? Wouldn't we be just be letting our geopolitical enemy get stronger?

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#27

Post by Bayart »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #21
roenxi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a bunch of people making a deal about how we'd gone out and done piracy to Russian yachts, legal questions be damned. If there are any options people are not looking for them. There'll be something. > Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Do you recall what happened to people who trusted the British? A lot of them died. And they were almost the nice Europeans. Trusting t…

>We need serious attempts and ongoing discussion about how to stop military escalation. History has shown us that appeasement is the worst possible policy.

Has it ? What's the data point, beyond Hitler ? Because History has shown repeatedly and consistently that escalation is reckless and extremely costly.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#28

Post by iSnow »

roenxi wrote: post #13
bhaak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What diplomatic off ramp does Russia need? There is a simple first step towards redemption and that is get out of Ukraine right now. Better yesterday. Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Eastern Europe tried to hammer that point into the brains of the other European politicians but it didn't work until now.

There were a bunch of people making a deal about how we'd gone out and done piracy to Russian yachts, legal questions be damned. If there are any options people are not looking for them. There'll be something. > Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Do you recall what happened to people who trusted the British? A lot of them died. And they were almost the nice Europeans. Trusting t…

>We need serious attempts and ongoing discussion about how to stop military escalation.

Bit late in the day, isn't it? The EU leaders were trying to talk to Putin till their eyes glassed over and Biden was willing to talk to Russia about legit security concerns.

Yet, what did that get us? Military escalation. Looking back, maybe the West should have put a couple of tank divisions around Kyiv and Charkiv and tell Putin to better not mess with them.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#29

Post by roenxi »

jeromegv wrote: post #19
roenxi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were a bunch of people making a deal about how we'd gone out and done piracy to Russian yachts, legal questions be damned. If there are any options people are not looking for them. There'll be something. > Western Europe just learned a painful lesson that you can't trust Russia. Do you recall what happened to people who trusted the British? A lot of them died. And they were almost the nice Europeans. Trusting t…

> There should be more serious grappling with why the Russians did this (and Crimea in 2014) than "Putin bad". Why don't you give us your explanation? It's just very odd to advocate for an appeasement policy when the aggressor keeps wanting more (first Crimea, then tried to take the whole Ukraine by going straight for the capital). It wasn't just Eastern Ukraine with Russian-speaking population, they went straight to…

No post body was provided.

Re: European natural gas imports and storage reserves

#30

Post by steve_adams_86 »

zibby8 wrote: post #5
pydry wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage + usage isnt enough either. The picture is only clear with storage + production + LNG import capacity + usage + population.

Why LNG specifically? There are other sources of pipeline gas that aren’t coming from Russia.

What are other sources of pipeline gas? Where I live everything is LNG so I figured that all there is.

What else can be transported and used in LNG lines?

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