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Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

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Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#101

Post by Scoundreller »

londons_explore wrote: post #22
waitwhatwhoa wrote: post #10

This was in 2021; it appears the fire was extinguished by July 11 [1], investigated by Vice later that year [2], and seems to still be being cleaned up by US EPA [3]. 1. https://www.ehs.com/2021/07/morris-lithium-battery-fire-high... 2. https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7vj73/everyone-thought-the-... 3. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-resumes-cleanup-hazardo...

What chemicals are in lithium batteries that are toxic? I was under the impression that while lithium batteries were dangerous due to explosion/flame risk, the actual ingredients weren't particularly toxic?

You don’t want to breathe in cement dust.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#102

Post by Double_a_92 »

spyke112 wrote: post #99
chmod775 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! Almost everyone can lift that overhead . 90% of men and more than 50% of women can lift a bit more than twice that overhead. It's a common job requirement. There would have to be something really wrong for an adult to struggle lifting 12kg. That's a large watermelon, and unlike the melon, the fire extinguisher g…

Where on earth do you get 12 kg watermelons? Genuine curious, the ones imported here in Denmark I would guess are big if they're around 3 kg.

Warmer countries. E.g. in Italy the common water melons are at least half a meter long.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#103

Post by Scoundreller »

mschuster91 wrote: post #93
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

In doubt, take two metal buckets, fill both of them half with sand, and when a lithium device starts smoking put it in one bucket and smother it with sand, or at least place the charger in the bucket. Friend of mine does that with e-cigarette batteries.

I think the commercial aircraft solution is to just put them in jugs of water.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#104

Post by blendergeek »

spyke112 wrote: post #99
chmod775 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A fire extinguisher large enough for a 500wh battery weighs 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that! Almost everyone can lift that overhead . 90% of men and more than 50% of women can lift a bit more than twice that overhead. It's a common job requirement. There would have to be something really wrong for an adult to struggle lifting 12kg. That's a large watermelon, and unlike the melon, the fire extinguisher g…

Where on earth do you get 12 kg watermelons? Genuine curious, the ones imported here in Denmark I would guess are big if they're around 3 kg.

I get them from my garden but I weigh them in pounds. Larger ones can grow in excess of 40 lbs (close to 20 kg).

Am from the Southeastern United States.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#105

Post by sgjohnson »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

A 5 gallon (18.9 L) jug of water weighs... well, almost 19 kilos, and most people have no problem lifting one.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#106

Post by audunw »

londons_explore wrote: post #26
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

The main reaction in a 'lithium battery fire' is the solvent for the electrolyte vaporizing and burning. So actually a battery can be put out by removing oxygen.

After the electrolyte has vaporised, the problem is the anode and cathode being permanently shorted, which will keep generating heat and igniting other things. I guess you can prevent the initial fire from breaking out, but if the fire has already started, it's too late.

I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#107

Post by proto_lambda »

p1mrx wrote: post #89
almost_usual wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big earthquake implies things like UMBs collapsing.

What are UMBs?

No idea, but from context, maybe they meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Dwelling_Unit? Really weird phrasing either way.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#108

Post by guiriduro »

Scoundreller wrote: post #101
londons_explore wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What chemicals are in lithium batteries that are toxic? I was under the impression that while lithium batteries were dangerous due to explosion/flame risk, the actual ingredients weren't particularly toxic?

You don’t want to breathe in cement dust.

But you don't want to breathe flouric acid more than you don't want to breathe cement dust, I'd wager.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#109

Post by audunw »

zelon88 wrote: post #60
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

I often wonder about this while hiking or riding my dirt bike out on the trails. Gas powered dirt bikes are prohibited almost everywhere due to risk of fire and chemical contamination. However, more and more I am seeing e-bikes ripping around on hiking trails that would get me and my dirt bikes a hefty fine and impound. The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same. And these e-bikes are typically driven…

> The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same.

Source? There's very little risk of an e-bike catching fire unless you're charging the battery. Most of the risk will be at home.

Battery fires gets a lot of attention because they're a new thing, but they're far safer than ICE alternatives in almost all circumstances. At least that's what the fire department here in Norway says, and they have pretty good experience with EVs by now.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#110

Post by rich_sasha »

I'm wondering, in a world where we use LiPo batteries to store seasonal grid level power from renewables (i.e. overproduce from solar in summer and store til winter), how big will the battery facilities be? And how bad would the fire be as a result?

It's not immediately obvious to me that these will be hugely safer than nuclear plants. Especially since LiPo battery fires seem to be much more frequent than nuclear plant incidents.

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