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Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

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Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#81

Post by girvo »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

> 12 kilos - most people can barely lift that!

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overall point, but this I find particularly surprising? My electric scooter weighs 14 kilograms and I carry it everywhere.

That said, adding an extra 12 kilos to my backpack would be annoying, for sure.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#82

Post by steviedotboston »

waitwhatwhoa wrote: post #10

This was in 2021; it appears the fire was extinguished by July 11 [1], investigated by Vice later that year [2], and seems to still be being cleaned up by US EPA [3]. 1. https://www.ehs.com/2021/07/morris-lithium-battery-fire-high... 2. https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7vj73/everyone-thought-the-... 3. https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-resumes-cleanup-hazardo...

Was the owner of the building ever held liable for all of this damage?

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#83

Post by SoftTalker »

zelon88 wrote: post #70
almost_usual wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m surprised e-bikes are allowed, they’re also prohibited on the trails here and considered OHV. Regarding fire I’d be worried about the hot exhaust on a dry 100+ day.

Most trail bikes come from the factory with spark arrestors with the major exception being cheap Chinese branded bikes. And I don't think the temperature of the exhaust stream would be enough to light a match 6" away from the tip of the muffler. You'd have to reef on the bike and park it in a pile of dry leaves up to the exhaust header for temperature alone to start a fire. The problem is when you dump the bike. If y…

> Most trail bikes come from the factory with spark arrestors

And most riders immediately remove them because they gunk up with soot and restrict the exhaust.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#84

Post by turtlebits »

nomel wrote: post #18
gtvwill wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 ton excavator and a 60 ton prime mover... Pretty easy.

There's a physical kind of easy, and there's a financial kind of easy. I've noticed they're usually at odds with each other.

It's not especially expensive.

I paid around $1800 to remove and dump 30 ecology blocks (weigh around 2 tons each).

If you do it yourself, a 10 ton excavator will cost around $500 to rent for the day.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#85

Post by olivermarks »

elihu wrote: post #38
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

I think the standard procedure in EV car fires is to just dump water on it to conduct the heat away as fast as possible, and to keep dumping water on it until the batteries can no longer self-ignite -- which can take awhile.

Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in Electric Vehicles - Safety Risks to Emergency Responders

https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#86

Post by trhway »

elihu wrote: post #76
lazide wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.

I've wondered if maybe it's possible to pack batteries with a relatively harmless material that undergoes a very energy-intensive phase change. Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam. Maybe there's a better material, or ways to design battery cooling systems so that a burning battery turns into a very efficient steam generator, and thus can be cool…

>Water's the obvious choice, but it tends to drain away rather than stick around long enough to turn to steam.

just add something gel-forming into the water or some fiber/dust (even just gluten flour) that absorbs a lot of water and turns into kind of watery dough.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#87

Post by fnordpiglet »

lazide wrote: post #53
Arubis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)

The good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.

The phase transition of water from liquid to gas requires an enormous amount of energy. It’s a very good substance for cooling very hot things.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#88

Post by mishu2 »

elihu wrote: post #38
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

I think the standard procedure in EV car fires is to just dump water on it to conduct the heat away as fast as possible, and to keep dumping water on it until the batteries can no longer self-ignite -- which can take awhile.

Or just submerge the whole car:

https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21236083/...

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#89

Post by p1mrx »

almost_usual wrote: post #54
themitigating wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would an earthquake directly cause batteries to set on fire? They are already subjected to significantly more vibration and movement in EVs

Big earthquake implies things like UMBs collapsing.

What are UMBs?

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#90

Post by j16sdiz »

lazide wrote: post #53
Arubis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)

The good news is, water is cold (generally), doesn't combust (generally), and there is a LOT of it. So spraying water, while it can make it spicier for a bit, allows you to suck away enough heat fast enough that it works okayish. It's the scalable, but not ideal, solution generally. Current guidance is don't bother with anything else, just spray it until the flames stop.

only if you have enough water.

if you don’t have enough water, it will just spread the fire

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