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Want jobs? Encourage immigration

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Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a nice thought, and might be relevant a few decades ago when America was at the top of its game in relation to all the other countries on Earth. Now, I'm not so sure. You're talking about a post-scarcity society when a growing portion of Americans can't even put food on the table or a roof over their head. You're talking the personal fulfillment when more and more Americans are forced to work multiple jobs ju…

You're talking about a post-scarcity society when a growing portion of Americans can't even put food on the table or a roof over their head. What are the actual numbers here? How does this situation compare with other countries in the world? The huge majority of Americans have, if anything, excessive food on their tables, and the great majority of Americans live in houses with sounder roofs over more square feet of f…

> "Why should Americans feel any urgency about changes in immigration policy when they know that most people who might like to come to the United States will instantly have more access to food and housing as soon as they set foot in America?"

Because things out there aren't nearly as bad as the average American believes. As an Asian immigrant to North America, it's constantly shocking how backwards many Americans imagine the rest of the world to be. Yes, much of the world has running water, sewage systems, fast food, and the internet.

Not everywhere else in the world is begging for a National Geographic special, or commercials full of starving babies pleading for your aid. The India of 1980 is not the same as a the India of 2011. The China seen in Tiananmen Square is not the same China one sees today. Many Americans' impressions of the rest of the world seem firmly rooted in the Cold War.

It used to be true that moving to the USA meant pretty much a guaranteed, dramatic rise in the standard of living. But guess what? America's QOL is dropping precipitously, while parts of the world previously considered "developing" can now give America a run for its money in terms of QOL. There's a great equalization going on, and that is why the US needs to worry about its immigration policy.

Ten years ago immigrating to the West was the thing. People would smack their own grandmothers silly for a chance at a one-way ticket out of Asia and into America. You would be surprised how quickly this has changed. I've known many people who came to the US and Canada for degrees and then have voluntarily gone back to Asia, despite offers to stay.

tl;dr: America needs to get its head on straight, it's no longer the gold standard for quality of life in this world.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#82
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most european countries have such a xenophobic system, but the uk, canada, iraland, new zealand, and australia have really open systems in place

then those countries should be receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs and now be hotbeds of innovation because of it. it doesn't seem like that's happening.

I'm Canadian, I'd argue Canada is receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs.

There are considerable innovations coming out of that country - the fact that it's not a hotbed for internet startups seems hardly relevant in the big picture. Businesses are being created by immigrants, who are creating wealth and employment in their respective communities. The fact that this in general has nothing to do with dotcoms is really a detail. Canada continues to be extremely competitive in traditional engineering disciplines, and is world-leading in many fields of science, not least of which is molecular engineering. The University of Toronto, after all, still holds the patent on insulin.

Next time you see a video of the International Space Station, with its bleeding-edge, unprecedented robotic arm, see if you can zoom and see which nation's flag is on it. Or dig into the US's collection of scientific and communications satellites and see how much of their R&D actually occurs in Canada.

I hope people on HN realize that the word "innovation" applies to all manners of fields. So often I feel like this community has blinders on, and very narrowly define "innovation" as "things that occur in my field".

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#83

Why doesn't the US move to a points-based system like the UK and Canada? This seems like a simple and sensible solution to a complex problem that ensures that the people who immigrate are in some sense "useful" to the country. I also don't understand why the green card backlog isn't being handled efficiently. Surely, if somebody is paying, say more than 20k in income taxes every year for, say 5 years in a row, there…

I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government. Yes. That is intentional by the design of the federal Constitution. A friend of mine, an engineer, was discussing American politics with me and another friend, a mathematics teacher, one day. The mathematics teacher decried the inefficiency of United States government. The engineer replied, "I'm an engineer. The one thing I'm afraid of is EFFICIENT governme…

So what's the reason Americans feel this way? Is there any fundamental reason why efficient governments are bad?

What does it mean to say that a government "governs the least"? Does it make the fewest number of laws? Does employ the fewest number of people? Does it spend the least money? All of the above? Some of the above? Why are these good?

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#84
post #69

The US immigration and visa situation is really quite horrendous. For example, I'm an Australian. That means I qualify for (and have) an E-3 visa. What's that you might ask? It's a special work visa created specifically for Australian nationals . It applies for two years and can be renewed indefinitely. What's more, unlike an H1B visa, it's not subject to quotas and the employer doesn't first need to "prove" they cou…

I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country.

I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a domestic worker. This particular visa program is also rife with abuse by employers looking to keep costs down [1]. A typical H1B visa holder in the USA would have their health insurance paid for by their employer. 457 visa holders are usually required to purchase their own since everyone else is covered under the national health care system. H1B visa holder's children in the USA can attend public schools for free. 457 visa holders in Australia have to pay public school tuition (~$5k/year/child) in Australia on top of paying normal federal and state taxes. Personally, I'm very satisfied with my situation but this isn't the case with all 457 visa holders.

Much like the US, Australia is a nation of immigrants. Most people I've met here are 2nd generation (i.e. their parents immigrated). Yet, there is a surprising amount of opposition to immigration[2].

[1]http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/employers-avoid-fines-despite-visa...

[2]http://www.smh.com.au/national/allout-assault-over-issue-of-...

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#85
post #69

The US immigration and visa situation is really quite horrendous. For example, I'm an Australian. That means I qualify for (and have) an E-3 visa. What's that you might ask? It's a special work visa created specifically for Australian nationals . It applies for two years and can be renewed indefinitely. What's more, unlike an H1B visa, it's not subject to quotas and the employer doesn't first need to "prove" they cou…

"One of the reasons I've come to New York to work is because I want to see it. New York is the beating heart of commerce"

For me NY is the informal capital of mankind. That's exactly why I went there for vocation. Quite impressive. But it also got me wondering about what NY could have been by now i.e. What quantity of office and housing space was added to Manhattan in the last decades in relation to the decades before? Zoning laws are to me just one another expression of a society that wants things to stay the same, because it's quite good now. It's about preventinting new stuff from happening. When watching the NY-skyline, do I see the concrete manifestation of a vibrant people or rather the remnants of what made it the informal mankind capital?

"All of this makes me a little sad actually because the US has forgotten it's route."

Some economists argue that the demographic dividend played a key role in the economic booms of Ireland but especially China. They also argue for considerable growth to happen in India and Brazil because of that. To me, the US is the oldest example of demopgraphic dividend at work. It's immigrants-turn-citizens concept basically made the rest of the world their asset of which to expect demographic dividend. The harsh immigration-laws are not that different from around the world, but considering from how they once were, todays laws are a negative archievement. They are there to prevent stuff from happening.

"The Roman Empire was enormous and collapsed. The British Empire was enormous and collapsed. Don't think it can't happen again."

This attitude of preventing new stuff (or competition or abandonment) is a major obstacle. One obstacle the Romans didn't overcome and neither did the British.

PS: The book "The New Deal in Old Rome" (http://mises.org/books/newdealoldrome.pdf) is a fun read, that's telling the story of roman decay using the language known from modern politics.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#86
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then those countries should be receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs and now be hotbeds of innovation because of it. it doesn't seem like that's happening.

I'm Canadian, I'd argue Canada is receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs. There are considerable innovations coming out of that country - the fact that it's not a hotbed for internet startups seems hardly relevant in the big picture. Businesses are being created by immigrants, who are creating wealth and employment in their respective communities. The fact that this in general has nothing to do with dotcom…

The piece cites companies like Google, eBay, and Yahoo. Can you provide three examples anywhere close to those in terms of number of jobs, in any industry?

The benefit may indeed be non-zero, but it doesn't seem that the benefit is signficant.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#87
post #69

The US immigration and visa situation is really quite horrendous. For example, I'm an Australian. That means I qualify for (and have) an E-3 visa. What's that you might ask? It's a special work visa created specifically for Australian nationals . It applies for two years and can be renewed indefinitely. What's more, unlike an H1B visa, it's not subject to quotas and the employer doesn't first need to "prove" they cou…

I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country. I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a do…

Firstly, you're quite right: I'm not aware of how the 457 works in Australia since (obviously) I don't have to get one. My understanding though is that in spite of the problems you brought up (which are news to me), at least processing is very quick and the process itself doesn't seem to be subject to as much politicking as the US system (IMHO).

As for the health insurance [1], this is definitely news to me and I'm a little surprised because it was passed by the Labor (left-wing) government. It's not all bad though: there are arrangements for countries with reciprocal health care agreements (mainly a handful of European countries).

If you think about it, that's fair enough. A broken arm in the US without health insurance could bankrupt me. The US doesn't provide Australians health care. Why should Australia provide it to Americans? It's just that the US doesn't provide health care to Americans either.

It's a good tip for those going to work in Australia: negotiate for employer-paid health insurance.

Honestly though, I don't think Australia is such a great place to live anymore (compared to 10+ years ago) for no other reason than the insane cost of living. It's cheaper for me to live in downtown Manhattan than it is in inner-city Perth and buying lunch doesn't cost me $15 here.

But I digress...

It is my understanding the Australian visa and residency system isn't paralyzed however. Getting a residency visa is (or at least was) relatively straightforward if you're degree-qualified and you speak English.

I agree that there is anti-immigration sentiment but the example you point to about illegal immigration (namely "boat people" from Indonesia and beyond). The problem there is that an awful lot of "asylum seekers" are nothing more than "economic migrants" attempting to jump the queue, where such migration is paid for by essentially indentured servitude to people smugglers once they arrive, possibly for years.

There are many reasons to clamp down on illegal immigration. [1]: http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/457-health-insurance-faq-visa...

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Canadian, I'd argue Canada is receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs. There are considerable innovations coming out of that country - the fact that it's not a hotbed for internet startups seems hardly relevant in the big picture. Businesses are being created by immigrants, who are creating wealth and employment in their respective communities. The fact that this in general has nothing to do with dotcom…

The piece cites companies like Google, eBay, and Yahoo. Can you provide three examples anywhere close to those in terms of number of jobs, in any industry? The benefit may indeed be non-zero, but it doesn't seem that the benefit is signficant.

RIM and ATI? One got acquired and continues to thrive, the other one is busy circling the drain - but both were innovative, significant employers, and remain so, on the scale of eBay and Yahoo. Both companies were founded by immigrants (Chinese for ATI, Greek/Turkish for RIM).

Google is a juggernaut that I won't touch simply because they're such an outlier, even in the get-big-fast world of dotcoms.

And let's be honest, in terms of job-creating power, this "innovative" industry of software is a drop in the bucket: http://jobs.lovetoknow.com/Largest_American_Employers - the employers with the largest employment impact are not the ones we would traditionally consider "innovative".

For reference, Google has about 30K employees world-wide.

In any case, we can argue about semantics and labor theory all day. Why don't you go to Toronto some time, climb the CN Tower, hang out in Chinatown, take the TTC to Bathurst, Eglington, Pape, and tell me that Canadian immigration policy hasn't been a gigantic boon for the country.

I'm a Canadian expat in the US right now, and the difference is startling. Canada has done a remarkable job of integrating its immigrant population into the middle class - the US likes to imagine itself as a melting pot, but for the most part ethnic diversity in this country is still separated along enormous socioeconomic lines - lines that are significantly blurrier in Canada. The fact that Canadian immigrants are first-class members of society from day one I believe is key to this difference. As is the fact that a "straight to permanent residence" policy sets the bar higher. The US is letting in enormous numbers of refugees and family reunification individual - people of questionable worth to society - with "straight to PR" tracks, but still bars the door to working professionals and highly educated academics with decade-long "indentured H-1B servitude". You tell me if that policy makes sense.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As an outsider, I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government." For about every aspect of the US federal government, you're right: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/us-government-blows-20000... It's /really/ hard to manage the world's largest GDP effectively. Governmental gridlock tends towards the status quo and institutional inertia is huge. This is Vernon Vinge's 'to scale, you need complexity, but…

It's /really/ hard to manage the world's largest GDP effectively. If any country can do it, it's the US. The universities attract the smartest students from all over the world, and have the best faculty in the world by a large margin. The government simply needs to figure out how to harness all the brainpower to solve real-world problems.

But you're assuming that all the smartest students in the world go to work for the government. They never do- salaries would have to go up a ton before that happens. And tax payers would never allow that.
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