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Want jobs? Encourage immigration

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Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#41

Post by HistoryInAction »

microarchitect wrote: post #15

Why doesn't the US move to a points-based system like the UK and Canada? This seems like a simple and sensible solution to a complex problem that ensures that the people who immigrate are in some sense "useful" to the country. I also don't understand why the green card backlog isn't being handled efficiently. Surely, if somebody is paying, say more than 20k in income taxes every year for, say 5 years in a row, there…

"As an outsider, I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government."

For about every aspect of the US federal government, you're right: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/us-government-blows-20000...

It's /really/ hard to manage the world's largest GDP effectively. Governmental gridlock tends towards the status quo and institutional inertia is huge. This is Vernon Vinge's 'to scale, you need complexity, but complexity inevitably leads to collapse' theories in action.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#42

Post by HistoryInAction »

_delirium wrote: post #40
HistoryInAction wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fit the narrative of 'immigrants are statistically hungrier for startup success,' specifically referencing this line in the article: "According to statistics from Partnership for a New American Economy, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were created by immigrants or their children." From there, the author goes on to say that if the immigrants and their children are more likely to start companies, why are we preventing…

The main thing that seems like a huge stretch is that those are good examples for an idea of a "parental visa", giving visas to immigrants with children who you think are likely to be good parents, whose kids will then grow up in U.S. society and be highly successful. Not as good examples in support of the "entrepreneur visa" idea, which expects the people receiving the visa to themselves start a company in the short…

I hear you, there are significant flaws in the examples she uses. I still think they're valid in demonstrating a different point than "entrepreneur visa." Her point is that there is an 'immigrant' demographic, and this demographic makes for good founders. Then, and only then, she makes the point that an entrepreneur visa for founders is a good idea.

The author uses immigrants' children/very young immigrants not immediately connected to the plan of starting a company to reference the entire immigrant demographic as a whole, since current US policies make it extremely improbable we can come up with good positive examples of a young immigrant starting a company, because US immigration rules prevent this situation from occurring.

Her logic is as follows: -Fact: "According to statistics from Partnership for a New American Economy, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were created by immigrants or their children." -Examples: Immigrants' children starting Fortune 500 companies

The logic here is using the immigrants' children to support the point that both immigrants and their children start companies, since the only direct immigrants who started the companies were either much older and already gone through the green card or broke the rules to start their company.

One of the major problems in our advocacy is that there is this big negative space that we /think/ can be filled. By definition, because it's a negative space, there are no positive examples to point to in making the argument. Positive examples strengthen any abstract argument, so they must be made. In this case, the author goes to young immigrants not immediately connected to startups to make the case that immigrants as a class make for good founders.

From there, the author makes one of her major points:

-Argument: US immigration prevents people from starting companies shortly after entering the country due to current visa rules -Example: Amit Aharoni/ABC story -Conclusion: Therefore we should change policy to allow more people like Amit in, hopefully creating more successes in this 'immigrant' demographic.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#44

Post by Mikushi »

felipemnoa wrote: post #38
Mikushi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, i am french (from France), been living in Montreal for 5years know, speaks perfect english (no silly french accent), but anytime i have to go to the US i get treated like shit by immigration agent when they see my passport. And it's been consistent across the 20+ times i've had to cross the border. Sometimes they even go into what i believe to be none of their business, last christmas i was coming back from Fran…

>> the U.S. agent bombarded me with question on what i was gonna do in canada, where i was staying, on a not so friendly tone as if i was lying This seems to be pretty standard. They are trying to catch you on a lie. I don't know about the "not so friendly tone" though. I guess it depends on the agent and what kind of day/issues he is having.

Yeah but last time i checked, Canada is not part of the U.S. and with a visa and ticket, that should be enough for him, if somebody wants to grill me it should be a Canadian Immigration agent.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#45

Post by microarchitect »

HistoryInAction wrote: post #41
microarchitect wrote: post #15

Why doesn't the US move to a points-based system like the UK and Canada? This seems like a simple and sensible solution to a complex problem that ensures that the people who immigrate are in some sense "useful" to the country. I also don't understand why the green card backlog isn't being handled efficiently. Surely, if somebody is paying, say more than 20k in income taxes every year for, say 5 years in a row, there…

"As an outsider, I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government." For about every aspect of the US federal government, you're right: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/us-government-blows-20000... It's /really/ hard to manage the world's largest GDP effectively. Governmental gridlock tends towards the status quo and institutional inertia is huge. This is Vernon Vinge's 'to scale, you need complexity, but…

It's /really/ hard to manage the world's largest GDP effectively.

If any country can do it, it's the US. The universities attract the smartest students from all over the world, and have the best faculty in the world by a large margin. The government simply needs to figure out how to harness all the brainpower to solve real-world problems.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#46

Post by marshallp »

kiba wrote: post #3

Jobs. It would seems that we have an obsession with creating jobs. If you hear politicians, and if my perception are right, they talk about jobs. Not whether or not we get more purchasing power than ever before. Not whether or not our lifestyle is more fulfilling than ever before. Jobs. More jobs. Less jobs. More competitive Americans. No manufacturing jobs. Colleges not creating enough people to fill jobs. Robots ar…

Right on. Manna by marshall brain is a scifi about this.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#47

Post by marshallp »

potatolicious wrote: post #6
kiba wrote: post #3

Jobs. It would seems that we have an obsession with creating jobs. If you hear politicians, and if my perception are right, they talk about jobs. Not whether or not we get more purchasing power than ever before. Not whether or not our lifestyle is more fulfilling than ever before. Jobs. More jobs. Less jobs. More competitive Americans. No manufacturing jobs. Colleges not creating enough people to fill jobs. Robots ar…

This is a nice thought, and might be relevant a few decades ago when America was at the top of its game in relation to all the other countries on Earth. Now, I'm not so sure. You're talking about a post-scarcity society when a growing portion of Americans can't even put food on the table or a roof over their head. You're talking the personal fulfillment when more and more Americans are forced to work multiple jobs ju…

which is why real safety nets, like a basic income stipend need to put in place. even milton friedman wanted a negative income tax put in place

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#48

Post by marshallp »

_delirium wrote: post #20
potatolicious wrote: post #4

The US really needs to emulate other countries here. The problem here is that the "immigrant" visa is really the same thing as a work visa, and that leads to a great deal of abuse. For one thing, the eligibility is tied to an employer, who is incentivized to embellish, cheat, and otherwise finagle their way to a visa. The expectation that the visa is temporary also sets a lower bar for entry - even though many of the…

> The US really needs to emulate other countries here. Which other countries are these? As the holder of an employer-tied 3-year temporary Danish work permit, with no possibility to even apply for the Danish equivalent of a green card until I've resided in the country with solid employment for at least 4 years (and passed a language exam, something the U.S. doesn't require), I don't think it can be this one... Though…

most european countries have such a xenophobic system, but the uk, canada, iraland, new zealand, and australia have really open systems in place

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#49

Post by HistoryInAction »

incosta wrote: post #39

I agree that US needs an entrepreneur visas. But I disagree with author's suggestion that all US-educated graduates must be given green cards. A lot of them came to US to study because they could afford it (often via wealthy parents). I don't think it's fair to give green cards only because they graduated from a US university thanks to their rich parents. Foreign students have one year after graduation to find an emp…

There's a 17 month extension, to 29 months, if you graduated in a technical/STEM field under Optional Practical Training (OPT) which I think you're referencing: http://www.nafsa.org/regulatory_information.sec/regulatory_d...

"But I disagree with author's suggestion that all US-educated graduates must be given green cards. A lot of them came to US to study because they could afford it (often via wealthy parents). I don't think it's fair to give green cards only because they graduated from a US university thanks to their rich parents." Very insightful!

However, the green card wait times are more due to scarcity, with many more people entering the green card pipeline than by law can exit each year, rather than slow bureaucracy.

I agree re: the future of immigration policy, but I think the talent war is even more important than you think. Right now, and since the 60s, US immigration policy has been aligned on a family-unification platform, and with strict numerical limits, a huge percentage of American immigration is taken up by family-based immigration. As liberal and pleasing as it is, it's going to have to go, as America will have to fully enter the competition for top talent.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#50

Post by marshallp »

jnbiche wrote: post #25
nobody314159265 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that most Americans are the descendents of the people that arrived, displaced the native population, took their land and exploited it's natural resources. So naturally they are wary of people coming along and doing the same to them. This doesn't really apply to Canada.

I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I have to ask: do you really think there were no indigenous peoples in Canada when the French and English came to settle there? Just pristine wilderness?

different scale though, most of canada is still empty and natives can roam free if they want
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