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Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#141

Post by MichaelCollins »

rmatt2000 wrote: post #131
marcopolo3333 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common thread I see is a lot is people conflating freedom of speech and having a platform (more specifically an online one). Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. Everyone should be entitled to speak and have their own ideas, no individual or company should be force to spread them.

> Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. What if the private entity is suppressing speech at the behest of the government?

That's obviously over the line, like a landlord searching your apartment as a 'polite favor' for the police who don't have a warrant and can't order him, but ask him nicely.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#142

Post by whimsicalism »

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #134
coeneedell wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how this is inconsistent with what they’re saying. These people are asking their colleges to not provide a platform, not that the speakers should not be allowed to speak anywhere.

Colleges are public locations that have historically allowed free speech. Court cases have been tried and lost trying to restrict this free speech. I think then you see the issue - "These people are asking their colleges to break the law and restrict the speech of others ." You can argue that the laws should be changed to stop the current concept of free speech though.

> Colleges are public locations

This is not my experience for the indoors of the college.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#143

Post by sseagull »

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #104
Xeoncross wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, litigation has increased. If you do express an opinion that isn't supported by pop culture then you are threatened with serious economic impacts and civil action to a greater extent than what I remember pre-internet. Then again, less people knew you held some alternative view back then. Nowadays it's popular to shout across all the media so everyone in the US knows about that kooky view the old guy…

I would offer that the solution to increased litigation is reforming our civil courts to prevent their abuses.

This is correct. Everyone should support anti-SLAPP laws. These make such frivolous lawsuits very expensive if they do infringe on clearly-protected speech.

SLAPP = strategic lawsuit against public participation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ...)

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#144

Post by bluescrn »

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #98
naasking wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. What if a private entity owns the town square?

Then build a town square that is publicly owned, we as society decided to wave our hands of the responsibility of making a publicly owned the internet for the convenience of allowing big tech do it for us. The solution is not force private companies to host speech. It either create a publicly owned town square on the internet or collectively stop valuing/using these platforms so much.

There’s always a corporation that can potentially silence you. Even if you managed to build your own entire network from scratch, on which to host this ‘town square’, you could be shut down by banks or power companies refusing to do business with you.

Meanwhile, the size of mob needed to get something/someone deplatformed seems to be getting smaller as deplatforming tactics continue to be optimized.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#145

Post by neonsunset »

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #65
illuminerdy wrote: post #29

I can see how their conclusions play out in real life. One of the common threads I've noticed across many people when trying to explain why defending freedom of speech, and the free and open exchange of ideas in general, is that they're not just defending some "right-wing" person's rights, they're actually defending their own rights. Because the same tactics and rationales that are being used to suppress and silence…

A common thread I see is a lot is people conflating freedom of speech and having a platform (more specifically an online one). Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. Everyone should be entitled to speak and have their own ideas, no individual or company should be force to spread them.

This is a bad-faith argument implying exactly the opposite of the post you are responding to. No one was forcing anyone, a large company caved in to outcry and a protest to which one (1) person showed up IRL.

This isn't reddit.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#146

Post by the_only_law »

whimsicalism wrote: post #124
rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

This also has to do with platforming. And it's not just about progressives, my university (Harvard) disinvited a progressive speaker after pressure from the CIA.

Who was it?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#147

Post by hackinthebochs »

citizenkeen wrote: post #127
rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

That is perfectly in line with freedom of speech. Is the government showing up and arresting the speakers? No? Then freedom of speech is intact.

There really ought to be a copypasta to respond to this "free speech = 1st amendemnt" trope.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#148

Post by scythe »

cortesoft wrote: post #105
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

>I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech.

Right, that would be freedom of the press.

>Did people complain that newspapers wouldn't allow the KKK to print opinion essays whenever they wanted? Did they get upset when a convention hall wouldn't let certain groups rent out their space?

Did people demand that typewriters and printers be beyond the reach of the badly opinionated? Did people demand the Post Office refuse to mail their newsletters? Did people demand that they should be denied phone service or that spammers should be allowed to tie up their lines to prevent them receiving calls?

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#149

Post by wpietri »

naasking wrote: post #108
wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to all of HN, but over the years I've gone from a free speech absolutist to seeing rights as balanced against one another. And also to consider what motivates me to be for free speech. For example, one reason I think free speech is vital is that I want everybody to have a say. Another is that think society works best when we hear from a wide variety of perspectives. However, there are some people who us…

> Note, for example, the way that Kiwi Farms was waving the free speech banner. You'll see the same thing being done by people who advocate for exterminating Jews and returning Black people to slavery. You fight bad ideas with better ideas. The ACLU used to champion free speech in precisely this way before the internet, as they fought for the rights of Nazis to hold marches. For Kiwi Farms specifically, this is a law…

> You fight bad ideas with better ideas.

This does not in fact work for hate. If you think you can prove otherwise, give it a go. But take a look at the rise of bad ideas over the last 30 years. Take a look at how dis- and mis-information have caused so much harm.

> That's a false choice.

No, it's not. Because people who are subject to sufficient online hate will leave the platform or never sign up. And it doesn't have to be directed at them personally; people in targeted groups observe what happens to other people in those groups and leave or self-sensor.

That should be obvious from a little bit of thinking, but it's also what Twitter internal research shows very clearly. (I worked in Twitter's anti-abuse engineering. And previously worked on bianca.com, the web's first big anything-goes chat space.)

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#150

Post by MichaelCollins »

illuminerdy wrote: post #99
mnd999 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you protect the rights of those being bullied, trolled, harassed, doxxxed and revenge-porned.

Bullied, trolled - Tell them to get over it. Harassed - online, tell them to get over it. In person (i.e. someone is actually harassing you in real life), call the police because we already have laws against that. Doxxed - If someone posts actual protected information, then sue them if you can. If someone just posts public information, then I don't see what the issue is. Revenge-porned - If someone makes secret recor…

> Revenge-porned

Go to the police, because most states have laws against revenge porn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_porn#United_States

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