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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#811

Post by verisimilitudes »

ivraatiems wrote: post #390
philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

What happens when enough people realize coexistence won't be permitted? He made his own forum, and a relentless campaign has conspired to bring it down. We can't have freedom of speech if only one side gets to communicate and also has access to all of the help it could ever need. Without freedom of speech, we eventually won't have peace.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#812

Post by cowtools »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #809
cowtools wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

Oh no you can’t post hate on the internet, that’s clearly just as bad as causing someone to commit suicide.

KF is certainly quite hateful, racist, spiteful, etc. I just don't like when arguments devolve into unplugging each other the internet.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#813

Post by Animats »

Animats wrote: post #456

Cloudflare needs to stop terminating weird sites. Here's the Daily Stormer, which Cloudflare cut off some time back, and is now back.[1] It's not much worse than many other right-wing sites. Neo-Nazis have been around since the 1960s, and they've mostly been a joke. As a kid, I walked past the HQ of the American Nazi Party, a small house in Arlington, VA, with a large "White Man Fight - Smash the Black Revolution Now…

Amusingly, the rating on the above posting has ranged from -2 to +3.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#814

Post by sealeck »

cowtools wrote: post #806
elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

> "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity.

That is restricting their ability to speak freely - now they have to hide their identity for fear of physical violence!!!

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#815

Post by 0xy »

elcamino44 wrote: post #784

I think it’s interesting that so many people see the danger in a Twitter “mob” effectively running Kiwifarms off the public, visible internet, without recognising that Kiwifarms themselves were a mob, with the precise goal of running people (including the recently targeted streamer) off the public visible internet too. The tactics were different, but the goal is effectively the same. The key differences are Kiwifarms…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#816

Post by Volundr »

cowtools wrote: post #706
masklinn wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. "Generally" is an important word here. So is "should". That speech "should generally" be free does not mean all speech is always acceptable. As the saying goes, your freedom to act ends where my nose begins. When a si…

[flagged]

> You are ignorant then. This is simply the nature of the internet ten, maybe twenty years ago.

Then I am too. I've been on the internet for longer than that, and I certainly don't recall this being the norm. It's possible it was in the corners you frequented, but not the ones I did. But unless you have some data that speaks to this being the norm across the internet and my experience being the exception all we have is anecdotes and mine cancels yours.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#817

Post by sealeck »

cowtools wrote: post #812
philosopher1234 wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no you can’t post hate on the internet, that’s clearly just as bad as causing someone to commit suicide.

KF is certainly quite hateful, racist, spiteful, etc. I just don't like when arguments devolve into unplugging each other the internet.

If you're using the internet to try and threaten and intimidate people then yes, people will try to unplug you from it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#818

Post by jameslars »

Here's the most disingenuous part for any defender of KF so far. The linked Twitter feed has a post from the KF operator:

"For the time being, I am locking the threads of the most prominent members of the hashtag campaigns against us... I'm tired of hearing about it."

Very "Free Speech" of KF. This is all just public information after all, isn't it?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#819

Post by quags »

I come from a hosting background over 20+ years so I think I have a different perspective that others here. I know cloudflare is a large public company - perhaps it is slightly different for this type of company. As a hosting provider I have in the past been noticed for certain sites with in my network that the general internet is pushing back against hosting. What happens is there is of course bad publicity but also crazy people come out - people threatening employees, getting public information on employees and owners working there, calling and threatening at your house for sites you host - which moves beyond fighting for free speech but over to how much of your personal life you and your employees do you want to disrupt for a website you don't agree with and perhaps honestly does nothing to benefit society. So while many people are claiming this is a free speech issue, I can only imagine cloudflare is getting a whole bunch of crazy coming out of the woodwork and threats to their own employees. As a business you need to decide what is worth the safety of your employees and what stands you want to take and cloudflare is deciding kiwi farms is not worth it based on the type of site it is.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#820

Post by sealeck »

caeril wrote: post #178
superkuh wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal? I think you mean PR team. They realized it would have an impact on income. There was obviously no legal issue.

On income? How would this work? As a CF customer, I am far more concerned with a policy or precedent of capriciously cutting off customers than a policy of defending "bad" customers.

Because you (and others like you) are probably not a substantial source of revenue to Cloudflare. Big companies who are the bulk of Cloudflare's sales (and whom they spend >1.5x on courting than they do on engineering) would rather not be hosted on the same infrastructure that powers hate groups. Not really as a moral thing, but in the same way that e.g. Volkswagen or Samsung or Allianz would rather not advertise on a child pornography website, they'd also rather not host on an infrastructure provider who provide services to a forum whose members try to drive people to commit suicide, make bomb threats, fake calls to counterterrorism hotlines and generally espouse _extreme_ right ideology.
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