Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#471

Post by dangus » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

The idea that this is scary or unsettling is libertarian bullshit.

Kiwi Farms is a societal antagonist. The paradox of tolerance shows us that we need to not tolerate assholes like them.

This whole idea that there's a "mob" that's "screaming loud enough" is, in this case, is just the rest of well-adjusted society refusing to tolerate these assholes.

I think of it this way: if I build something that's "agnostic" and still offer it to someone I know is harming others, and in some cases committing crimes or enabling them, that means a part of my labor is helping that act, and my service is no longer agnostic. It's almost like I am working for them.

If I know who my customer is, and I know what they do, I can no longer claim ignorance. If I sell Internet service to Adolf Hitler and I know who he is, I'm complicit.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#472

Post by pclmulqdq » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

flumpcakes wrote: post #340

antiufo wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans woman here, both 1) access to HRT for minors and 2) HRT without medical/parental gatekeeping are widely supported positions in the trans community (which I also endorse). Rationale for 1. It's widely supported by the medical community and by scientific studies, and helps improve the quality of life of people with gender dysphoria. Rationale for 2. Gatekeeping traditionally consist in telling a psychiatrist anec…

Anyone ( anyone regardless of anything) who said they believed giving any medicine to a child without parental consent, even implying subterfuge, to me is extremely dangerous and I would pull my child out of any activity/school/club if there was someone there with those views in a responsible role of the children. For that reason I think attitudes like this do more harm for the trans community than good. If I knew a…

Many, many public schools in the US gave out COVID shots without parental consent. It also seems that several of them are encouraging kids to transition and hide it from their parents - a school in Alaska was recently sued for this.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#473

Post by squeaky-clean » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

hecatoncheires wrote: post #295

weare138 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

Whoop tee doo. I've seen dozens of livestreamed murders on Instagram Live and Facebook Live. Reddit has /r/chiraqology where there are hundreds of videos of gang bangers and drill rappers beefing with each other and shooting at each other, and commenters celebrate the lifestyle and keep detailed ontologies of it all. Nobody is talking about nuking any of these platforms from existence just because of some isolated il…

Reddit nukes hate subs weekly. They're slow to get to it, but they do it. As far as Facebook live and Instagram live, those platforms weren't made with the sole purpose of harassing and doxxing people. Neither is reddit. When they find communities that promote those things they do take them down. Their moderation is slow and overwhelmed, but don't pretend Facebook encourages murders on live streams. KiwiFarms does encourage everything that happens on it.

If you're going to take a strawman this far, blame the cellphone and camera manufacturers involved in those live streams. As well as the landlord who owned the building it happened in. And any restaurants that serve them, can't murder if you don't eat.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#474

Post by neonsunset » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

more_corn wrote: post #259

It’s almost like there are some behaviors we collectively won’t tolerate and if you engage in them people will pull out all the stops to bring you down. Act like an asshole and you end up getting taken down. Who could have guessed?

That's a bold claim to make that angry twitter mob is a majority. Keep in mind, the deplatforming you're celebrating today might have people you like at the receiving end tomorrow.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#475

Post by phillipcarter » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #312

phillipcarter wrote: post #289

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Good to see it.

Freedom of speech for speech you hate is also a social principle - see the ACLU Klan cases. Principles aren't supposed to be easy to keep, otherwise they're hobbies.

I agree! KF is expressing their speech just as freely as they did before. But less of society is choosing to support that speech. What do you see wrong with that?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#476

Post by treis » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #396

fullstop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.

I see a lot of vile speech directed toward me on Hacker News.

Can you give examples?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#477

Post by KptMarchewa » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

philippejara wrote: post #454

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future of the internet seems pretty sad... That’s frankly terrible. Sites infamous for promoting harassment can’t be hosted anymore. Clearly a tremendous loss for the internet. /s

This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it. Its easy to say those things for someone you dislike, but zoom out and look at the implications, you have a campaign pretty much asking cloudflare to stand aside and allow them to do DDOS attacks on a website which apparently won several lawsuits against them already(ill dig up the sources a bit later on when I…

> This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it.

Like the slippery slope of dropping terrorist harrasser site being "extremely scary" is actually an attempt of discussion, right?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#478

Post by wizofaus » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

Deathcrow wrote: post #366

therouwboat wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how many more are dead from Facebook etc?

Facebook has probably killed more people with face detection and name tagging in photos alone.

If even only half the material presented in "The social dilemma" was credible, Meta have absolutely been knowingly responsible for more harm than KF. I don't know what the right solution is.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#479

Post by wavefunction » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

bergenty wrote: post #427

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

Quoted post unavailable.

It seems there's a distinct historical lack of lynching of violent racists and bigots. They appear to be the perpetrators of the vast majority of lynchings. Where "lynching" is not the getting rejected by an internet service provider but getting dragged by some violent thugs to be leered at in your final moments as you struggle and choke to death gasping for air for no reason at all.

To equate the two is to insult the rest of us and I, for one, despise being insulted.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#480

Post by zo1 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

fullstop wrote: post #383

djbebs wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, my line is people like you. Please disconnect from the internet. See the problem?

I am not asking for any of these people, specifically, to be removed from the internet. I am saying that I support cloudflare banning hosts which specifically target, harass, and doxx specific individuals or communities. I'm not supportive of banning Joshua Moon from the internet. Do you agree that there is a difference here?

This move and people's response to it is not about lines and principles. It's pretty much a slippery slope and we all know it; some cheer it on because this time their line was crossed, and others see it for what it's signaling. The overall erosion of discourse on non-accepted ideas and topics that are on the scale of mean/offensive/hateful.

Yeah none of us here are happy about this site existing or innocent people being targeted, of course. But the next one will be slightly less extreme as kiwi farms and we'll say the same things.