Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#311

Post by xwdv » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

tristor wrote: post #137

xwdv wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people cannot escape. And it often surprises me how many people really don’t want to work in software.

Ironically, I much prefer hardware to software myself, but during college (while studying EE) decided that it was a deadend career path and figured out a way to be software-adjacent without having to be a developer. It worked out pretty well for me so far. The reality is that most people follow incentives, almost nobody works their actual dream job, they work the job that they have the most return for their abilities…

“Passions” aside, I struggle to think of any other career better than software engineering, in terms of return on investment on the effort applied. And with low barrier to entry.

I make far more money than a lot of other people while working less, and much more comfortably from my own home. Why do anything else? I’ve concluded people will really subject themselves to a lifetime of grueling pointless work just to avoid some math and science.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#312

Post by leetcrew » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #292

novok wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of people who are smart enough and have the work ethic to finish an EE degree are also smart enough to become a FANG engineer. EE is harder than computer science by far. So for the set of people who can be fab engineers, live in the USA and speak English, yes, the FANG engineer option is always there.

Yes, but if you didn’t go to the handful of acceptable schools, it doesn’t matter much how smart you are.

this may have been true at some point in the past, but it certainly isn't now. most of the engineers I work with have degrees from schools I had never heard of before meeting them. my team just hired a new grad that didn't even have any internships in school. it's not hard to get an interview at FAANGs these days. the difficult (or "luck-required") part is actually giving good solutions to four out of five algo problems, each in 45 minutes.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#313

Post by leetcrew » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

formerkrogemp wrote: post #308

cxr wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't corroborate this at all. I come from a CS background. If you leave school and enter the workforce at SAS, you will be at a disadvantage insofar as you are looking for a workplace that you hope to learn something from or one that you hope reinforces good engineering practices. The semiconductor industry, from the vantage point of an experienced systems thinker, reinforces awful engineering practices. All the t…

-> A close friend (from a non-CS engineering background) I know to still be at SAS. We don't talk about finances, but at around 8 years in, I estimate that he just recently (since COVID) crossed the six figure threshold. He's in a fairly senior role. Meanwhile: "What's x86?" — a direct quote from a conversation not too long ago. -> He has no real professional experience outside of SAS, was not set up in an environmen…

"crossed the six figure threshold" likely refers to salary. this is pretty easy to estimate based on title if the person works at a large, well-known company. but otherwise, you're right. you can't possibly estimate an ordinary person's net worth without intimate knowledge of their investments, spending habits, etc.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#314

Post by md2020 » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:10 PM UTC

cxr wrote: post #164

bob1029 wrote: post #10

I worked at the Samsung A2/S2 lines in ATX with a bunch of young Americans back around 2011-2013. I would say they absolutely would. It's a very high-energy place with more going on than you can ever hope to keep track of. Even if the technology doesn't interest you, the cultural interactions should. You could have some days with Japanese, Koreans and Americans translating 3-ways in a conference room. Opportunities f…

I can't corroborate this at all. I come from a CS background. If you leave school and enter the workforce at SAS, you will be at a disadvantage insofar as you are looking for a workplace that you hope to learn something from or one that you hope reinforces good engineering practices. The semiconductor industry, from the vantage point of an experienced systems thinker, reinforces awful engineering practices. All the t…

To offer a different point of view, I'm a software engineer at ASML in the US. I can only offer the experience I've had on my specific team, and I've heard that this does vary between teams, but we do follow normal software industry practices. We have version control. We have automated regression testing, and unit tests for everything we write. We do Agile and use Jira (with all the same gripes that everyone else has about those). I made $90k here right out of my undergrad, and got a raise one year later (this year) to be over $100k.

Could the tooling be better? Sure. Our version control system is pretty old, but the company has made a massive push over the last few years to modernize all of it, and when we transition to that at the end of this year I think we'll be in a pretty great spot. Some teams are already using the new tooling and it has gotten very positive reviews. I have a great relationship with my team and my manager. I get to work on interesting stuff (mostly embedded systems), and I've had the opportunity to learn a small part of one of the most advanced machines humans have ever built.

I'll say the thing about getting people from defense is true, but not so much in software. If anyone has other questions feel free to just ask.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#315

Post by rcarr » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:11 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #107

rcarr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know who got an apprenticeship after school instead of going to uni are absolutely raking it in and have enjoyed a significantly better quality of life than their uni going peers. I personally can’t see how the uni goers will end up having a better time in the long run as the official narrative goes. The majority of the tradies seem to end up buying multiple houses and going the landlord route for early re…

Ask them about their back and knees when they’re 50.

Not as much of an issue if you can transition by mid 30s to being a landlord. You’re almost in the same boat as professional athletes then, rigorous toll on the body for 15/20 years and then chill for the rest of it. These guys normally go straight into an apprenticeship at 16, have qualified by 19 and have bought their first house by 21. If they stay over here they’re normally on at least £60k, if they go abroad they can earn six figures easily, especially if they’re willing to go places like Middle East and Africa. But they can also hit that back home or in developed countries like Australia if they’ve got the right tickets and experience and are willing to travel where the work is which most of them do.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#316

Post by FunnyBadger » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

spc476 wrote: post #305

pessimizer wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

14 miles in British is something like 200 miles in American.

In Britain, 100 miles is a long distance. In the US, 100 years is a long time.

Especially in the Western US. In Los Angeles, all travel is measured in time rather than distance.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#317

Post by FunnyBadger » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:21 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #168

ForHackernews wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just an attempt. Toyota is the one of largest employers of Americans in the auto industry today: https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/car-manufac...

True, they have plenty of plants, I just mean it sounds like NUMMI wasn't as successful as it could've been.

It was very successful locally. The problem that "killed it" was that GM wanted to expand the model to other plants (Van Nuys was the next) and the same techniques didn't work. Likely because the wrong people were running things in Van Nuys compared to Fremont. Leadership is EVERYTHING when it comes to organizational transitions and problems with that.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

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Post by galangalalgol » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

elcomet wrote: post #294

galangalalgol wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems obviously true. It only seems unjust because we have this idea that tasks that are more intellectually challenging should pay more. That isn't how supply and demand work. If you need twice as many typists as are graduating, but only need a quarter of the radiologists that complete residency, well then typists will be paid far more than radiologists. We have an excess of people who want to work hardware, sp…

> we have this idea that tasks that are more intellectually challenging should pay more Why do you have this idea ? I'm not sure it sounds more "just" than saying, for example, that tasks that are physically more challenging should pay more, or humanly more challenging should pay more, etc..

I was constraining the statement to tech work. It does feel to me like roofers in southern summers should get paid like C levels in the valley. But that isn't how the world works and writing a new physics engine for an indie game, while difficult, is not going to pay as much as much as modifying a payment portal ui to get 0.3% more transactions completed. Because of of those things is in far more demand.

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#319

Post by derefr » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC

formerkrogemp wrote: post #306

derefr wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than tearing down SWEs for being economically rational actors, how about starting a semiconductor company where people are paid more?

-> SWEs for being economically rational actors It's okay just to say that you like the money. You don't always have to use the largest words. It's also okay for someone to say that software engineers are paid lots of money. Perhaps too much. -> how about starting a semiconductor company where people are paid more? I'm assuming you're being facetious given the enormous logistical and financial costs of starting a some…

> It's okay just to say that you like the money.

I'm not an SWE.

> You don't always have to use the largest words.

Some words have specific meanings, rather than just being longer synonyms for short words.

> Perhaps too much.

Again, no. This was my point — this is like saying that the solution to homelessness is to take away the homes of everyone with homes, so that everyone is now equally homeless.

Don't pay the people who are already getting a good deal less; pay the people who are currently getting a bad deal more.

> I'm assuming you're being facetious given the enormous logistical and financial costs of starting a somewhat up-to-date semiconductor company.

No. Just fucking do it. Start another company that's less complex but is an obvious money earner; get rich; reinvest your wealth into a semiconductor company. Should only take 10 years. If you care, do it.

If Elon can do it — and Elon is not the smartest man — you can do it too.

(To be clear, you don't have to start a company that competes in the wider semiconductor market; you just have to start a company that competes in a niche. Like, for example, 5G radios. But your goal does have to be to compete; getting acquired means you no longer have control over your own business strategy, incl. profit margins, and therefore can no longer make your company "the one where people get paid well.")

Re: Will young Americans want to work in semiconductor manufacturing? [video]

#320

Post by sudosysgen » Sat, Sep 03, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #296

sudosysgen wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can get a STEM PhD you can probably get into FAANG. Sure they're not what they used to be, they're still difficult to get. And they require many of the same skills as modern programming interviews.

> nd they require many of the same skills as modern programming interviews. I don't know, I have seen numerous PHDs who can't competently write any piece of code, I'm beginning to think it's a feature, not a coincidence.

That's because their job isn't really to write code, it's to do something else. But if you can get a PhD you can probably learn how to leetcode. A lot of them don't really care much about being able to write good code.