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Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

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Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#121

Post by ad404b8a372f2b9 »

hotpotamus wrote: post #52
hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

I see these complaints (generally from the right wing), and I think... so what? No one ever seems to have any action tied to resolve their complaints, presumably because it would ironically require creating laws that restrict speech - what is cancel culture other than a reflection of free speech in its own right after all? Of course, if you start talking about boycotting Israel, they'll be happy to send the law after…

Cancel culture is not the result of free speech, it's the result of a toxic social environment.

Here are some actionable solutions that don't require limiting free speech:

1. Improve labor laws so craven employers can't just dump their employee because they said something online (unrelated to the company on their personal time) and people are complaining.

2. Regulate social media algorithms to prevent the feedback loops that lead to events like a woman with two followers becoming the target of 20 million people.

3. Change media incentives to improve the quality of journalism and decrease click-bait and outrage-chasing.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#122

Post by hef19898 »

colechristensen wrote: post #66
moomin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really should read the article. There’s real threats to free speech out there, not just people telling you you’re an idiot.

The biggest threat to free speech around the world is the failure to lead by example of the western world, particularly by America. It doesn't matter that we're a few notches better than somewhere else, they see us doing the same things by popular demand so doing a bit more themselves is easy to justify. We're losing the high ground and the argument that nobody else should do the same things we're doing.

It's more like the world waking up to the fact tgat the US, and the West in general, never had the high ground to begin with.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#123

Post by phillipcarter »

RobotToaster wrote: post #103
hexator wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's quite a bit of difference between the government banning free expression and a private company deciding that they don't want intolerable people on their platform — which itself is an example of their free expression.

Why is corporate censorship more tolerable than government censorship? Why is censorship by the bourgeoisie more tolerable than censorship by the government bureaucrat? When corporations control de-facto monopoly platforms by nature of the network effect, they become censors, this shouldn't be a controversial statement. (not to mention the idea that corporations are people is one of the dumbest legal constructs since…

> Why is corporate censorship more tolerable than government censorship?

Because that's the free market?

Places like YouTube or whatever being a de facto place for expression only exist because they've been remarkably balanced (as per how the market sees it) in how they handle speech on their platforms. As we've seen with how new social networks pop up so quickly, it doesn't take very long for a company/product to lose market relevance for serious strategic missteps.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#124

Post by phillipcarter »

hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

> The fight for freedom of expression is here, not Myanmar

Boy that sure is spoken like someone who gets to live an extremely comfortable life, expressing what they want to express, without consequences.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#125

Post by devindotcom »

throwAwaxxx666 wrote: post #109

I was banned from LinkedIn for 4 months for saying “Chinese virus” in the context of a post about a UK Telegraph article reporting on evidence on the origin of the virus. I did not mean to say anything more than if I was to say the Spanish Flu or German Measles or Middle Eastern Respiratory Disease. Somehow it’s been a bad thing to use the same naming pattern in case of Covid (based on where it originated) I have bac…

This article is about people being jailed or killed for criticising their government

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#126

Post by bondarchuk »

faxmeyourcode wrote: post #94

Seeing the UK score an 82 on the freedom scale, whatever that means, next to the United States' score of 84, is enough to discredit whatever wacky measure they've created for "freedom" in this article. https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_...

You think it's too high or too low?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#127

Post by dleslie »

notacoward wrote: post #95
dleslie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popper also sets the limit fairly clearly in his description of the paradox, and it's: > But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer argu…

I don't think the limit is as clear as you seem to think, especially in the age of modern social media and their effect on discourse - filter bubbles, using outrage for engagement, amplification of otherwise-marginal beliefs, etc. Is an organized disinformation campaign (even if not state sponsored) "willingness to engage"? It rather seems like an attempt to prevent or disrupt rational argument, even though it doesn'…

An organized disinformation campaign is what I would consider to be irrational argument and deserving of regulation; we already accept limits on deceptive and harmful expression by way of regulation and criminal legislation. Ie, one can't simply sell strychnine and claim it's a panacea, or defraud investors with cooked financials.

But that's different from a zeitgeist of individuals who believe in falsehoods and argue for what they believe to be true; any single one of which may be acting rationally and arguing in good faith.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#128

Post by phillipcarter »

salt-thrower wrote: post #117
hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

Freedom of speech is literally just “the government can’t throw you in jail for expressing an opinion.” It’s always been only that. Media companies (TV, newspapers, radio, now social media) have always “deplatformed” people who they disagree with or consider dangerous. There is nothing new in any of your examples. If you agree with the views of deplatformed influencers, you can start your own blog about it. That’s fr…

There's an influx of right-wing people who are trying to rebrand "free speech" as being able to say reprehensible things with zero _social_ consequences. So you're unfortunately trying to reason with the wrong person. Their belief is that all speech in all forms should be free from any consequences, social, legal, or otherwise.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#129

Post by leaflets2 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #81
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time it's physical actions, it's too late. You have to stop, at the very least, calling for violence, for example.

In fact, if you read the context, that's exactly where Popper drew the line. When a side replies with fists or guns, then you quit being tolerant. Not before. (I'm not sure that he mentioned direct calls for violence one way or the other, so I won't dogmatically claim he put that on either side of the line. But he did not accept ideas - any ideas - as "intolerant".)

> where Popper drew the line. When a side replies with fists or guns

No, here's his line:

> we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal

That's before fists and guns, at an earlier stage. It's before the nazis invaded Poland, not after.

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance, the Discussion section)

Apparently he knew that after, can be too late

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#130

Post by witherk »

faxmeyourcode wrote: post #94

Seeing the UK score an 82 on the freedom scale, whatever that means, next to the United States' score of 84, is enough to discredit whatever wacky measure they've created for "freedom" in this article. https://www.theregister.com/2016/06/02/social_media_arrests_...

Wait what? I have seen multiple stories of the police showing up to people's house and fining them for tweets in the UK?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-60260292

Also it is my understanding that it is much easier to sue someone for libel in the UK. I would think that the UK score should actually be lower.

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