Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end • Hacker News Board

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#41

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

You are conflating free speech and tolerance. Free speech is only a specific form of tolerance dedicated to speech and is not a tolerance of the subject of the speech.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#42

Post by at_a_remove » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

I find the whole thing perversely enjoyable. If you want to test someone, allow them to succeed. Give them power. When I was young, the left was the underdog, and they sure sounded like a nice bunch of people ... kindness, forgiving, can't we all get along? Free speech, our country was founded on it!

The wheel turns and now they are in power. Suddenly it is cancel, no contact, punch Nazis, hang the traitors, and so on. You don't get to speak anymore, then sneering about "freeze peach." Laughing about the misfortunes of others. Give people a little taste of authority and, well, masks off.

I am reminded of that Flannery O'Connor story, and I guess some people would be decent were someone there to shoot them every minute of their lives.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#43

Post by moomin » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #29

jessaustin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely Popper wasn't so sloppy as that? There is an obvious difference between toleration of expression, which "society" certainly should practice, and toleration of more physical actions that in theory could be up for a vote. Somehow I grow suspicious of attempts to obscure that obvious difference...

By the time it's physical actions, it's too late. You have to stop, at the very least, calling for violence, for example.

Yeah, more people should take the time to fully understand https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocid... (and be terrified how far we are along with certain minority groups).

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#44

Post by etchalon » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

ReptileMan wrote: post #31

etchalon wrote: post #23

The article, and its data, is almost specifically about actual authoritarian regimes and actual restriction of speech by governments against citizens. But I predict this thread will very quickly nose dive into "Twitter banned me for saying COVID is a hoax and something something first amendment."

I do think that twitter and the other walled gardens are public fora and people should have some free speech rights there. That are different from whatever Twitter decides at their discretion.

That happened fast.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#45

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #25

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

We must be intolerant of intolerance — even when the intolerant are vulnerable, minority, underprivileged, non-WEIRD, reasonable, articulate, high-status, academic, or whatever. If the only exception to a policy of tolerance are positions of intolerance, then it works pretty ok. Because it isn’t a matter of “free speech,” it is a matter of rejecting intolerance. Intolerant free speech must not be tolerated (with this…

We will decide what is intolerant, not you.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#46

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

californiadreem wrote: post #38

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

For anyone wanting the full quote from Popper's The Open Society: "Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation,…

Nothing in your quote talks about speech.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#47

Post by dleslie » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

Popper also sets the limit fairly clearly in his description of the paradox, and it's:

> But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

So long as whomever you are speaking to is willing to engage in rational argument then Poppler would have you tolerate them, and to be intolerant of those who reject argument and advocate violence.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#48

Post by hexator » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

hunglee2 wrote: post #35

the article is an example of orientalism, presenting the case as if there is no urgency on the matter in the Western world. Cancel culture, de-platforming, algorithmic dampening, account mislabelling, brigading on-platform, account suspension and deletion - all of these things are happening in the Western world, on US platforms. I used to have sympathy with the the argument that 'private company's can do what they li…

There's quite a bit of difference between the government banning free expression and a private company deciding that they don't want intolerable people on their platform — which itself is an example of their free expression.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#49

Post by bhupy » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

This gets thrown around frequently as though it's some ironclad rule of nature, but hasn't actually been corroborated by any empirical evidence. In fact, the way that it's phrased, it's essentially unfalsifiable. What is the limiting principle? If I find "backsliding of free expression" a form of intolerance, should we be tolerant of the Paradox of Tolerance?

The empirical data is very mixed, to the extent that it's essentially impossible to draw any conclusions that fit into a pithy philosophy like Popper's.

At least in America, expression has gotten more free over time, with the overturning of Schenck v United States towards the far more permissive Brandenburg v Ohio and New York Times Co v Sullivan precedents — and American society has gotten more tolerant since the 1960s, not less. Yes, America has problems today, but they're nothing compared to the problems America faced back then.

Even comparing data points today, expression is far more restricted in countries like India relative to peer Western democracies (especially the US), and the former is far less tolerant and increasingly more authoritarian (under Modi) than the latter.

The Paradox of Tolerance is a really convenient way to shut down any kind of debate because nobody wants to be thought of as intolerant.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#50

Post by tgv » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

VictorPath wrote: post #36

> Since he took office in 2000, Putin has been eroding the space for public debate in Russia. He moved from dismantling independent media Right, Russia bans independent media, while those in the free EU can go read https://www.rt.com ... oh yaa, the EU blocks that web site.

Since you're talking about independent media, your whataboutism doesn't make much sense.