Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

thenewhumanitarian.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 299 posts

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#21

Post by bequanna »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

What a clever trick!

Like magic, anyone who doesn’t agree with you then instantly becomes “intolerant” and dangerous so we shouldn’t allow them to have a voice or power.

That line of thinking is nothing but BS mental gymnastics to justify oppressing and silencing the other side.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#22

Post by wikitopian »

aaroninsf wrote: post #13

There is a real, and serious, and worsening, conflict between "free expression" of noble and necessary kinds, and weaponized speech, such as disinformation and other tools for sentiment steering. Which is arguably now a significantly worse problem for most societies than mere suppression. Not to mention merely venal "corporate speech" and the deluge of commercial speech (much of it undisclosed).

Is there a way that adults who are capable of critically thinking for themselves to opt out of your crusade to protect us from ideas you disagree with?

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#23

Post by etchalon »

The article, and its data, is almost specifically about actual authoritarian regimes and actual restriction of speech by governments against citizens.

But I predict this thread will very quickly nose dive into "Twitter banned me for saying COVID is a hoax and something something first amendment."

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#24

Post by jessaustin »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

Surely Popper wasn't so sloppy as that? There is an obvious difference between toleration of expression, which "society" certainly should practice, and toleration of more physical actions that in theory could be up for a vote. Somehow I grow suspicious of attempts to obscure that obvious difference...

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#25

Post by dr_dshiv »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

We must be intolerant of intolerance — even when the intolerant are vulnerable, minority, underprivileged, non-WEIRD, reasonable, articulate, high-status, academic, or whatever.

If the only exception to a policy of tolerance are positions of intolerance, then it works pretty ok. Because it isn’t a matter of “free speech,” it is a matter of rejecting intolerance. Intolerant free speech must not be tolerated (with this one exception!)

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#26

Post by 0xbadc0de5 »

aaroninsf wrote: post #13

There is a real, and serious, and worsening, conflict between "free expression" of noble and necessary kinds, and weaponized speech, such as disinformation and other tools for sentiment steering. Which is arguably now a significantly worse problem for most societies than mere suppression. Not to mention merely venal "corporate speech" and the deluge of commercial speech (much of it undisclosed).

Part of the trouble / dilemma I see is that most (all?) of the means of combating "misinformation" that are currently being proposed/deployed are indistinguishable from authoritarianism. It seems short-sighted that we should be voluntarily building means that could be used to enslave us. The solution to the problems posed by misinformation and sentiment steering is more free expression, not less.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#28

Post by causi »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8
colechristensen wrote: post #3

"I find people who don't think exactly like me to be intolerable" is the bread and butter for controlling a population. People look at the past and think to themselves "those people in the past were wrong, that's why the one acceptable way to think being enforced with power was immoral, on the other hand, my opinions are right, so the ends justify the means". Intolerance is intolerance, regardless of how morally just…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

The paradox of tolerance is an idea. I'm growing increasingly tired of authoritarians citing it as a fundamental law of the universe.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#29

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

jessaustin wrote: post #24
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

Surely Popper wasn't so sloppy as that? There is an obvious difference between toleration of expression, which "society" certainly should practice, and toleration of more physical actions that in theory could be up for a vote. Somehow I grow suspicious of attempts to obscure that obvious difference...

By the time it's physical actions, it's too late. You have to stop, at the very least, calling for violence, for example.

Re: Backsliding on free expression around the world needs to end

#30

Post by [deleted] »

bequanna wrote: post #21
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

What a clever trick! Like magic, anyone who doesn’t agree with you then instantly becomes “intolerant” and dangerous so we shouldn’t allow them to have a voice or power. That line of thinking is nothing but BS mental gymnastics to justify oppressing and silencing the other side.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN