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The silent majority in software

vadimkravcenko.com

321–330 of 371 posts

Re: The silent majority in software

#321
post #6

> Usually, the comments on HN/Reddit are polarised by a single group of people who have the same opinion, Can't speak for Reddit, but that's not at all the case here. For example, I often speak of my hatred of microservices here. I'll get some upvotes and agreement, some people telling me it's a dumb opinion, and some people telling me we're doing it wrong and explain their right way. Believe it or not, I learn a lot…

I don't think microservices are silent majority. They seem like more of a blogger architect who likes to tinker with stuff thing. I would expect the true silent majority just uses monoliths. If it works and doesn't make people complain every day when they work on it, why use a microservice? That's more work. Everyone likes to think of microservices as a modern high tech thing, but to me it seems like old fashioned un…

Microservices vs monoliths with nothing in between is a false dichotomy itself of course. There's been SOA and n-layer applications for decades now. Not every service is a microservice and not everything bigger than a microservice is written as one big application.

From the discourse on forums these days, someone fresh to the field might think there's no such thing as an internal API or an ongoing ETL layer without breaking each feature down to its own container and throwing the whole thing on Kubernetes. All those systems that are two to four layers and decomposed into half a dozen or so parts at the outer interface still exist in the world, even if they're not on track to be one container per feature.

Re: The silent majority in software

#322
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that applies to a lot of creative industries. Certainly when I was looking to be a designer some 20 years ago you were expected to maintain a portfolio. I don’t even mean in that sense though, I just don’t understand having a skill like that and not using it for fun. For what it’s worth, the best salespeople I know have almost no purely home life and are taking calls and making deals all hours of the day.

Still, hobby projects are not a portfolio.

They are when you haven't other things you can show show.

Re: The silent majority in software

#323
post #218

>While browsing HackerNews, I sometimes get the feeling that every developer out there is working for FAANG Bubbles on HN; Entry level Web Developers are getting $200K per year working in FAANG or Big Tech. Non-FANNG are getting $150K anyway. Ruby may be dead, but PHP is even more dead. Java may rule the enterprise, but you should not mention Java. No one uses Oracle or MySQL, why would you want that? Postgres is the…

I will review your perceptions of HN bubbles.

>Entry level Web Developers are getting $200K per year working in FAANG or Big Tech. Non-FANNG are getting $150K anyway.

I don't browse job threads much and I don't pay attention to people mentioning salaries so I can't say.

>Ruby may be dead, but PHP is even more dead.

>Java may rule the enterprise, but you should not mention Java.

For PHP and Java, there is a very strong case to be made that "dead" means "utterly flawed and completely uninteresting and somewhat ugly\repulsive and only worth writing if the money is very very good", which is (in my very humble opinion) trivially true. It doesn't matter how much they are written, they are dead branches on the PL evolutionary tree, they won't have progeny or nostalgic mind share rooting for them as languages.

I don't know what people declaring Ruby "dead" mean, perhaps its about Rails falling off the hype train or Python eating a lot of its potential mind share and market niche. But Ruby is definitely nowhere close to Java or PHP in bad design, it's a descendent of Smalltalk (which Java aped badly) and Perl (which PHP aped badly), the union is very fruitful and the language is delightful.

And for what it's worth, I remember 2 times I was pretty heavily downvoted because I criticized java. Same goes for C++ and JS. I don't remember seeing anyone downvoted for hating PHP, but also none for defending them. Seeing bubbles is very correlated with what your own biases are.

>No one uses Oracle or MySQL, why would you want that? Postgres is the only DB forward.

Maybe Oracle Bad, that's real and very popular here on HN, for good reasons. I don't remember anyone seriously saying you can't use MySQL or only use Postgres.

>Everything should be Remote.

God no, that's aweful. This position has fierce opposition, including me.

>Communication should always be Async

Maaaybe ? I see plenty of opposition to this. My personal opinion is that good comm is not sync or async, it's exactly what it needs to be to get the message across.

>Oh, Ada is the second Forbidden Fruit on HN.

Not really, it doesn't get mentioned alot because it has miniscule online resources but whenever it's mentioned (e.g. in the context of formal verification with Ada\Spark) there is broad enthusiasm and interest.

>Facebook is...... OK I guess we shouldn't go there.

Haha, yes. Very true. But (like Oracle) also for very good reasons. But I agree that Apple, Amazon or Google aren't angels either, and it rarely get mentioned. In fact, if I can choose a single FAANG company to destory overnight, it would be Apple, their way of treating customers disgust me so much.

>USB-C will solve all cabling problems. Everything should be USB-C.

>5G is useless.

>AV1 and AVIF. The video and image standard to rule them all.

Interesting, I never even saw those opinions expressed once, and I'm fairly addicted to HN. I'm beginning to suspect there are "Meta-Bubbles", bubbles where your perception of what things are bubbles is itself bubble-like.

>Nothing should be centralised. Everything should be distributed.

Hmmm No ? There is an HN bubble against cryptocurrency, which should be impossible if what you're saying is true.

>You do not criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet

True-ish, especially Rust. But there is plenty of aweful criticisms of Rust that always go something like "Everything the Rust compiler can do my own custom home-grown linter tool can also do, nobody needs memory safety if we just be careful also smart pointers and RAII". There is plenty of bad things to say about Rust, none of it leaves C and C++ in good light.

Re: The silent majority in software

#324
post #57
post #25

There are thousands of Java developers in the US who make $80,000 a year and live a fantastic life. No leetcode, no Bay Area, no FAANG. Just people writing the code responsible for our banking, travel, supermarkets and many other systems which underpin our society.

My friend’s father is a firmware engineer in Bulgaria and he hadn’t even heard of Rust. I’ve noticed that it takes a looong time for technologies to propagate globally

Is anyone expecting that most firmware engineers would already hear about Rust?

Re: The silent majority in software

#325
post #80
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that in my own experience, if you go against the zeitgeist on HN you can often get by as long as you're sensitive/respectful and intelligent on the issue. There are people who downvote things they disagree with, but I think most people on here downvote people who sound unconstructive or argumentative. And at the end of the day, if you're respectful etc, who cares about being downvoted or having people argu…

you're supposed to downvote things you disagree with on HN. Here's Dang pointing to PG saying that downvoting for disagreeing is what you're supposed to do https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

This sounds completely wrong to me...

Re: The silent majority in software

#326
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you're supposed to downvote things you disagree with on HN. Here's Dang pointing to PG saying that downvoting for disagreeing is what you're supposed to do https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

This sounds completely wrong to me...

Agree. Downvoting disagreeable people will eventually completely silence them with that logic. One has to be generally agreeable to maintain positive karma. Not sure if the side effect is worth it. There are a lot of amusing assholes out there with unpopular opinions. Opinions that are highly relevant to the topic at hand can be polarizing, but these will likely result in the poster having negative karma long term. pg and dang are simply wrong. It encourages a hive mind.

Re: The silent majority in software

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds completely wrong to me...

Agree. Downvoting disagreeable people will eventually completely silence them with that logic. One has to be generally agreeable to maintain positive karma. Not sure if the side effect is worth it. There are a lot of amusing assholes out there with unpopular opinions. Opinions that are highly relevant to the topic at hand can be polarizing, but these will likely result in the poster having negative karma long term. p…

That isn't true, I am very disagreeable and argumentative and post before I think, and still maintain positive karma without any issues.

Edit: It works since to downvote you need 500 karma, but everyone can upvote, so getting many upvotes is a lot easier than getting many downvotes.

Re: The silent majority in software

#328
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The insane race to adopt any fad to be cool, is a mindset I find far worse morally than using tried and true tools. It enhances risk. The latest tool language and/or framework is uncharted territory A tried-and-true solution has had a lot of bugs and issues documented and some of them solved. It also mean the team must take a break from development to learn whatever the new thing is. Some will need more time than oth…

This is a false dichotomy though. Your comment makes it sound like the only options are to keep using the same tech stack for 30 years or to "race" to adopt the "newest fad". What about switching from a moribund 30 year old technology to a mature 5-10 year old technology every now and then, based on an assessment of the very real drawbacks of living in the past. Security is one of the biggest problems with outdated s…

Switching wholesale is often detrimental itself. Often the best thing is to leverage new tools for new development, and as certain older parts of your stack are retired move those from the legacy technology to something more modern. If something's getting so old that you're getting short on people who understand it, that part becomes more urgent to move to the newer technology. It doesn't kill a business to have two or even three generations of tech spread across teams so long as it's manageable.

An older tech stack doesn't mean never updating the system. either. Perl still gets updates. Linux distros still get updates. In fact, often a newer piece of software will introduce bugs including security bugs that were fixed in older software long ago. All things being equal, though, using a language with better string handling and memory safety can be a boon if your old stuff is in something like C.

Re: The silent majority in software

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Downvoting disagreeable people will eventually completely silence them with that logic. One has to be generally agreeable to maintain positive karma. Not sure if the side effect is worth it. There are a lot of amusing assholes out there with unpopular opinions. Opinions that are highly relevant to the topic at hand can be polarizing, but these will likely result in the poster having negative karma long term. p…

That isn't true, I am very disagreeable and argumentative and post before I think, and still maintain positive karma without any issues. Edit: It works since to downvote you need 500 karma, but everyone can upvote, so getting many upvotes is a lot easier than getting many downvotes.

> That isn't true, I am very disagreeable and argumentative and post before I think, and still maintain positive karma without any issues.

Oh, I see. You personally haven't been downvoted into oblivion and/or had the door slammed in your face, so everything is cool then. 100% of the people who were censored must have been terrible people. Heil Dang, etc.

Re: The silent majority in software

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and my work is generally focused around the endless practicalities and compromises, necessary to get products out the door. This hits too hard. I’m still in the “acceptance” phase of grief over the death of my ideal that there’s a “right” technical solution for every problem. And I’m in my 40’s.

I've learned to "lean in" to my compromises. It starts by accepting them, right off the bat, then using the time that I'd otherwise spend in fruitless pursuit of shiny, doing things like testing and documenting the codebase. Experience gives me the ability to see them, at the start of things, other than waiting to run into them, later.

I've read enough of your comments here to know that you are one of those who really Get It Right. Top 5% dev. Keep up the good work sir.
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