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The silent majority in software

vadimkravcenko.com

61–70 of 371 posts

Re: The silent majority in software

#61
post #8

> The “silent majority” was used by President Richard Nixon during his presidency and his campaign against the Vietnam war. He spoke to the people who were not actively voicing their opinions and who were overshadowed by the vocal few who were supporting the war. This is a shocking misunderstanding of history. The “silent majority” Nixon spoke of were folks opposed to anti-war protests . Nixon intentionally prolonged…

>If you ever find yourself about to say that Nixon did something that a non-evil person would do, you’d better triple check your facts.

Actually Nixon did several things "a non-evil person would do", Nixon as evil is a carricature.

Like giving back Native American lands, or green-lighting the first major environmental protection legislation, or to get talking with China. And of course the Vietnam war itself was escalated by the "good" JFK, and even more so Johnson.

Later presidents did things many times worse than Nixon (his Watergate business included) and got off scot-free. But Nixon had an ugly mug, and was an old-style politician, in an era when the boomers were young and "rebellious" and wanted someone more trendy.

Re: The silent majority in software

#62

I think what the author says is true. The mass of digital workers use older, established and unfashionable technology, and are neither vocal nor particularly curious about the work. But there's an implication of moral purity at play. Are those who just quietly "mind their own business" a good, wholesome but misrepresented group? On the contrary, I think that in matters with far reaching consequences, which computing…

The insane race to adopt any fad to be cool, is a mindset I find far worse morally than using tried and true tools.

It enhances risk. The latest tool language and/or framework is uncharted territory

A tried-and-true solution has had a lot of bugs and issues documented and some of them solved.

It also mean the team must take a break from development to learn whatever the new thing is. Some will need more time than other, which may slow it down even further.

A lot of systems are developed in domains where "go fast and break things", A/B testing etc. would not be at all advisable.

The main selfish focus on "adopt whatever is hip this week" is to pad resumes with it, consultant can come in to help train people $$$. Consultants will fight for it to use the newest and greatest since it may increased development time $$$.

Re: The silent majority in software

#63

I used to be part of the silent majority of software developers but that changed after I became disillusioned about the direction of the industry. Nowadays, I'm basically forced to use certain inefficient tools in order to get a job because a bunch of highly vocal junior devs who got their way. It's a bit like in politics; when times are good for the majority, most normal people aren't interested in politics; they ha…

I am regularly up at night in a cold sweat worrying about how if I suddenly needed to find a new job I’d have to learn some sort of front end JavaScript framework.

Re: The silent majority in software

#65
I am probably part of the silent majority, at least until this comment. Be aware that my comment is focused on business. What you do as a hobby or a side project is out of scope.

The debate around languages often focus on syntax differences, as if they alone would make a huge difference. We need to consider the eco system as a whole.

Many have probably read the "blub paradox". The context of that article is his experience from building a product in the late nineties, when the eco system was so much smaller than what we have today. In a world where you have to invent your own frameworks and libraries to get things done, the article makes sense. I don't doubt that you will benefit from a powerful language, when you need to make something truly novel.

Today we are in a completely different solution where 90% of web startups should use one of the existing frameworks and libraries to build upon, rather than making your own. It's basic "plumbing" compared to what we used to do 20 years ago. For the remaining 10% where they need to (re)invent a database or framework, a powerful language may have advantages when your product is mostly code.

Another tendency caused by the bubble effect of HN/Reddit, is that many move on to different languages and is left with their impression of a language as it was years ago when they last used it.

One good example of this is Java. If you asked me 10 years ago, I would say that Java had stagnated. If you ask me today, I will tell you of all the improvements that have been made and many more planned. A lot of the arguments against Java is based on old articles and experiences that are no longer valid.

I am also wondering if some of the dislike is also caused by many learning it in school in an environment that has little to do with real work, but that is a different rant.

I'm not saying Java is the coolest language out there, but the massive amount of open source and battle tested frameworks like Quarkus and Spring is a differentiator. I would argue that the "Blub paradox" of yesterday should be replaced with a "Bubble paradox", where the real work is done by pragmatic developers who use an ok language with an excellent eco system.

It is sometimes frustrating to read articles about startups who clearly should have chosen better. Everything is fine in the beginning, and they write blog posts about the success they had which is circulated within the bubble. After some time they need to scale up and implement functionality that is not supported well in their eco system. They then spend time on solving problems that seem novel to them, but is basically a solved problem in a more mature eco system. Instead of growing the product, they are forced to spend time on the "glue".

To paraphrase Breaking Bad: Are we in the money business, or the programming business?

If I have to bet on two startups, where one uses the latest bubble language and the other Java, I would bet on Java in 90% of the cases. I know that they will get things done. Perhaps even modern PHP would be preferable.

Re: The silent majority in software

#66

The disgusting natures of UNIX, UTF-8, and the general culture here whose members don't understand that touching a computer (poorly) doesn't entitle them to dominion over the non computer-touchers is generally controversial on orange Reddit.

a professional community has the right to a place to communicate among themselves, about things they like and understand. This has nothing to do with dominion

Re: The silent majority in software

#67
post #59

> Sometimes I’ve seen Pull Requests from empty accounts with a brief explanation of what was implemented. They just submit bug fixes, no drama. Over half my coworkers including some very talented developers have no public repos. As someone with almost 200 that always blows my mind. How do you work in software for years and not find some little hole you want to fill. That’s not a judgment call, that’s an honest questi…

Great salespeople aren’t expected to run lemonade stands after work. “You’re so good at sales, how come you don’t want to sell something in the evening? There must be something you’re itching to sell to your neighbors.”

Software engineers seem unique among professionals that you’re expected to maintain a hobbyist body of work that’s also your professional calling card.

Re: The silent majority in software

#68
post #54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many developers (over 35 years old) in Europe doing the same (they earn above the average european salary, so like 140K EUR/year or so): Java, no HN, no Linkedin, no FAANG, no leetcode, no switching jobs every 2 years. They have families, they are normal people. If you ask them about monads, they would have no idea (like me) what are you talking about. That's the path I'm heading to (hopefully).

140k a year in most of the countries in the EU would mean you are working in trading/banking or some Big Tech, which means they probably had to do go some of the leetcoding to end up there.

They may be contractors rather than employees.

Re: The silent majority in software

#69
post #61
post #8

> The “silent majority” was used by President Richard Nixon during his presidency and his campaign against the Vietnam war. He spoke to the people who were not actively voicing their opinions and who were overshadowed by the vocal few who were supporting the war. This is a shocking misunderstanding of history. The “silent majority” Nixon spoke of were folks opposed to anti-war protests . Nixon intentionally prolonged…

> If you ever find yourself about to say that Nixon did something that a non-evil person would do, you’d better triple check your facts. Actually Nixon did several things "a non-evil person would do", Nixon as evil is a carricature. Like giving back Native American lands, or green-lighting the first major environmental protection legislation, or to get talking with China. And of course the Vietnam war itself was esca…

I've never been into history, so my perception of the guy was "formed" almost entirely by Futurama. So, in reality I don't know anything about Nixon except I do not want him to get Cambodian on my ass

Re: The silent majority in software

#70
post #6

> Usually, the comments on HN/Reddit are polarised by a single group of people who have the same opinion, Can't speak for Reddit, but that's not at all the case here. For example, I often speak of my hatred of microservices here. I'll get some upvotes and agreement, some people telling me it's a dumb opinion, and some people telling me we're doing it wrong and explain their right way. Believe it or not, I learn a lot…

The phrase "HN/Reddit" is weird by itself. This place feels so different from Reddit.

HN culture is quite like a subreddit IMO. The only real difference is that it doesn't receive drive-by comments and upvotes from redditors browsing /r/all while not subscribed to it. This helps to curb most forms of reddit humor

However; check out subreddits like /r/rust, it looks a lot like HN

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