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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#541
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so is any other argument to attempt to explain what was before the universe. Those are outside the realms of science. And furthermore, just because something is not falsifiable does not make it untrue. We exist in this world after all, so something had to have happened at the start. I posted that lecture as an intro to broaden people's perspectives. It is then a proof by induction to reach the correct religion th…

> And so is any other argument to attempt to explain what was before the universe. Those are outside the realms of science. That's the point of the submitted article. That any theory that cannot be proven should not be paid much attention to. They are nice thought experiments but that's it. > And furthermore, just because something is not falsifiable does not make it untrue. Neither does it make it true. The point is…

> That any theory that cannot be proven should not be paid much attention to

So we continue to live our life as animals?

As I mentioned elsewhere, in Islam, we have logic, observational evidence, and the honest news to get to truth. Disregarding any one of them is nonsensical.

> Neither does it make it true. The point is if there can't be proof then it's pointless to think too much about it.

Honest news is a source of truth.

> You said there were proofs in the video

There were several arguments made, e.g. fine tuning argument and the fact that something cannot come out of nothing. Those are established, and denying them is basically denying logic.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#542
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we keep talking past each other. > Once more: that science cannot explain something is NOT evidence for any other random unprovable explanation like the existance of a god. Which is why in Islam we have three sources of truth: observations, logic, and the honest news. We have established that Muhammad, Prayers of God be upon him, existed, and the Quran is preserved, and the authentic Hadiths are preserved. He…

> I think we keep talking past each other. On this I guess we agree! :) > Which is why in Islam we have three sources of truth: observations, logic, and the honest news. We have established that Muhammad, Prayers of God be upon him, existed, and the Quran is preserved, and the authentic Hadiths are preserved. He performed miracles, and foretold events, some of which only came true in the past couple of decades (more…

> same time claim that god does not follow logic and that we should not try to apply our logic to understand him and his rules. This makes no sense.

It does make sense. Those three sources of evidence can have some overlap. We cannot for example retest that an ancient battle took place even though we know it did. Not everything is testable over and over again. Same applies here.

> But there is more than one version of Islam, isn't there?

What do you mean by version? Sunni vs Shia I presume? Yes, but we apply the same standards to arrive at truth. Furthermore, all "versions" have the same core: God is one, we all have the same Quran, we all have to pray, fast, etc. We all submit to God. Any other differences we can discuss to arrive at the truth.

> It also means you believe there cannot have been any mistakes in any of the writings.

We have an Isnad system in Islam, something that does not exist anywhere else in either faith systems or even secular systems. It gives us absolute confidence in being able to know if texts are valid or not. If we apply those standards to the Bible for example, it would immediately be rendered as weak (we don't know who the bible authors are).

The Quran is 100% preserved. The authentic Hadiths are 100% preserved. It depends on what you mean by "stories". This is a deep topic that I would not be able to do justice over a post, you'll have to watch an introductory lecture that talks about these things. Furthermore, there is a very specific process in how we go about deducing rules from Quran and Hadith. These are the major schools of thoughts (Hanafi, Shaf'ii, Maliki, and Hanbali).

> If there is no room for errors then there is no room for improvement.

Not true. There are many nascent topics that we have been able to derive rules for based on the approaches I mentioned.

> You don't accept the possibility of errors.

Not true. We know and classified Hadiths according to their authenticity, we have Hadiths that are Mutawater for example, all the way to falsely attributed Hadiths which are fabricated. We've done the work a long long time ago.

> There have been a great number of religions throughout thousands of years. Or iterations and versions of the certain religions. I find it arrogant and shortsighted to believe that your version is the final one and no other that comes after it will be better.

The Islamic view is as follows: God sent prophets and messengers to people throughout history. We accept Moses, Jesus, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Saleh, etc. Prayers of God be upon them all as prophets and messengers. There were many whom we don't have the names of, we're talking hundreds of thousands if I recall correctly. They all came with the same core message of the Oneness of the Creator, and to worship him and submit to him. As such, the followers of those prophets and messengers were called Submitters (Muslims in Arabic). Over time, those messages got corrupted. For example, Jesus Prayers of God be upon him, never claimed to be God or son of God, however, over time some people attributed this false idea to him, and we have the present day incarnation of Christianity.

Islam is the final revelation from God, and is preserved. It supersedes everything before it. Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him was sent to all of mankind until the end of time. He brought with him many miracles, and foretold many events in the future, some of which are happening today before our very eyes.

We have to accept all of those prophets that God sent, otherwise we're not Muslim.

On the other side, there are definitely man made religions (e.g. satanism) and many self proclaimed prophets that were not sent from God. Obviously, we don't give those people any credence, and we were warned about them in our texts.

Also, I've heard the fallacious argument before. Just because there are many religions does not mean that one of them isn't true. This is the genetic fallacy. Something that Dawkins and his ilk do all the time without realizing it.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#543
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So your argument stems from illogic? No. I as mentioned in another post, God exists outside the realms of this reality, and is not bound by our laws. He created our laws, and he created logic, and they do not apply to him. We don't deny logic. If you study Islam, logic is one of the 3 methods to arrive at truth. The other two are observations (not dissimilar from experimental science) and the final is truthfully re…

> No. I as mentioned in another post, God exists outside the realms of this reality, and is not bound by our laws. He created our laws, and he created logic, and they do not apply to him. Yea and once you leave our realm of logic nothing can be proven or argued about apart from stating that we don't know anything about it. To claim otherwise is futile. > We don't deny logic. If you study Islam, logic is one of the 3…

We apply logic where it applies, and we use other sources of evidence for where it doesn't apply. This is the same as we were talking about regarding science. Science and logic have their limitations, they are good at what they do within their realm of operation, but outside of it, we have to use other tools.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#544
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said of 4 prominent authors promoting atheism that he described as the four horsemen of atheism that their primary argument is that god isn't good ergo god isn't real. This...just isn't true. How is it a lie? It's a summary, sure, he can only go into so much given the time. He shows a book by one of them and the title is a giveaway of that summary. > false rant about Islam being inherently peaceful Based on what…

That is the only logical conclusion to arrive at from an atheistic world view, at least he's being honest with himself. More atheists should be honest with themselves as well and we'll see how things end up. People may speak fantasies, but act - they mostly act as they honestly think. “Things” will end up just as they are now. You are dehumanizing atheists and, as I suspect, anyone who doesn’t follow your “ethical” g…

> You are dehumanizing atheists and, as I suspect, anyone who doesn’t follow your “ethical” god.

I'm not. We see the evidence of the direction of where the world is heading right before our eyes. The wise people already see it coming.

> thinking that all ethical people who do not agree with you are just not honest with themselves is delusional.

I said that the conclusion that those atheists had reached is the ultimate and only conclusion to reach when one is honest with themselves. I saw many atheists, and they don't think about the implication of their world view. They just live day to day as things around us get worse, then people cry and complain about how bad things are, while being blind to the true causes.

Look at the big mess of the modern day economic system. People are crying about high interest rates, student loans, etc. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all prohibit usury (interest) for a good reason. Today people are trying to address the symptoms but not the cause, and they're failing at it. All these things have repercussions, but few people see it.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#545
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned elsewhere, you cannot prove everything only by science. In Islam, we have logic and the honest news as two other sources we rely on to study and deduce facts about our reality.

Nobody claims science can prove everything! I mentioned multiple times how science is honest about that fact. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you addressed any of my points.

I do. My first post here was about scientism, which is the religion that science can explain everything.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why anxious? the answers to those questions, while interesting and entertaining, aren't relevant to you today. Just be glad you get to experience this tiny little part of the universe for the brief time you're here.

Is the universe gigantic enough and long-lasting enough that my consciousness will come back in some form after I die?

"Your" consciousness, no. But consciousness in general may be eternal. Death of your self is like a drop of water returning to the ocean.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#547
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody claims science can prove everything! I mentioned multiple times how science is honest about that fact. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you addressed any of my points.

I do. My first post here was about scientism, which is the religion that science can explain everything.

No you didn't. The specific thread here of the conversation is not about scientism anymore. But if you want to go back, the original discussion was about science vs religion and not scientism. Nobody in here claimed they adhere to blind faith in science and that science can explain everything. The opposite was stated.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#548
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And so is any other argument to attempt to explain what was before the universe. Those are outside the realms of science. That's the point of the submitted article. That any theory that cannot be proven should not be paid much attention to. They are nice thought experiments but that's it. > And furthermore, just because something is not falsifiable does not make it untrue. Neither does it make it true. The point is…

> That any theory that cannot be proven should not be paid much attention to So we continue to live our life as animals? As I mentioned elsewhere, in Islam, we have logic, observational evidence, and the honest news to get to truth. Disregarding any one of them is nonsensical. > Neither does it make it true. The point is if there can't be proof then it's pointless to think too much about it. Honest news is a source o…

  >> That any theory that cannot be proven should not be paid much attention to
  > So we continue to live our life as animals?
What? How does yours follow from mine? I absolutely can't follow your way of thinking. Please explain. We seperated from animals long before religions were a thing. I am not living life as an animal just because I am not a theist (nor atheist).

  > As I mentioned elsewhere, in Islam, we have logic, observational evidence, and the honest news to get to truth. Disregarding any one of them is nonsensical.
  > Honest news is a source of truth.
"Honest news" is hearsay. I can't go and verify any of it. I cannot logically explain any of it even. You are asking me to just believe it is true what someone a millenia ago said, something (miracles) that goes against any real life obvervation I can do. Sorry, not happening.

  > There were several arguments made, e.g. fine tuning argument and the fact that something cannot come out of nothing. Those are established, and denying them is basically denying logic. 
You said there is proof and yet whenever I ask you to present it you don't. I refused a whole bunch of the arguments made in the video, I think it was extremely misleading and some might call it dishonest.

I specifically refuted his fine tuning argument. I did so using basic logic and understanding of statistics. Can you tell me where exactly I was wrong? Quick recap: he assumes (unjustified) that there was only one try at making the universe and so the chance to get our universe would be excedingly low. There is no reason to make such an assumption and if you remove that assumption then the most likely scenario is actually that you arrive at our universe because with enough tries you will hit the jackpot a hundred times in a row, guaranteed. From our limited point of view that would look like a rigged system, something designed to be that way. This might be unintuitive at first to many people but is a simple mathematical fact.

That is just one of the possible explanation without resulting to intelligent design. Stephen Hawking's top-down cosmology is another. There are a few more.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#549
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we keep talking past each other. On this I guess we agree! :) > Which is why in Islam we have three sources of truth: observations, logic, and the honest news. We have established that Muhammad, Prayers of God be upon him, existed, and the Quran is preserved, and the authentic Hadiths are preserved. He performed miracles, and foretold events, some of which only came true in the past couple of decades (more…

> same time claim that god does not follow logic and that we should not try to apply our logic to understand him and his rules. This makes no sense. It does make sense. Those three sources of evidence can have some overlap. We cannot for example retest that an ancient battle took place even though we know it did. Not everything is testable over and over again. Same applies here. > But there is more than one version o…

  > It does make sense. Those three sources of evidence can have some overlap. We cannot for example retest that an ancient battle took place even though we know it did. Not everything is testable over and over again. Same applies here.
If something is not testable then I need to be sceptical. Maybe the ancient battle happened. Maybe it didn't. Maybe it happened but the written texts are full of inaccuracies. I can't tell. The more evidence the better. Historical records from a thousand years ago are many times highly inaccurate.

  > What do you mean by version? Sunni vs Shia I presume? Yes, but we apply the same standards to arrive at truth. Furthermore, all "versions" have the same core: God is one, we all have the same Quran, we all have to pray, fast, etc. We all submit to God. Any other differences we can discuss to arrive at the truth.
And why is there still no final resolution which one is the true one?

  > We have an Isnad system in Islam, something that does not exist anywhere else in either faith systems or even secular systems. It gives us absolute confidence in being able to know if texts are valid or not. If we apply those standards to the Bible for example, it would immediately be rendered as weak (we don't know who the bible authors are).
This literally is appeal to authority. "These fine men said so and so it must be true". I don't believe in the stories in the bible either.

  > Not true. There are many nascent topics that we have been able to derive rules for based on the approaches I mentioned.
I am talking about existing rulings. It assumes they have all been, without any shred of doubt 100% perfect. It does not leave room for future knowledge to improve our understanding of the past and adjust accordingly.

It is one of the core concepts of science. Always be open to challenge our understanding of reality and refine our models when new evidence emerges. Since we honestly admit that we don't know everything yet, we need to be open to change and improve.

  > Not true. We know and classified Hadiths according to their authenticity, we have Hadiths that are Mutawater for example, all the way to falsely attributed Hadiths which are fabricated. We've done the work a long long time ago.
But you said in another place that you believe everything that Islam teaches you is 100% correct. So all these checks and work has been done yes? Or are you open that there might be a (even if very small) possibility that some mistakes sneaked in somewhere somehow?

  > The Islamic view is as follows: God sent prophets and messengers to people throughout history. We accept Moses, Jesus, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Saleh, etc. Prayers of God be upon them all as prophets and messengers. There were many whom we don't have the names of, we're talking hundreds of thousands if I recall correctly. They all came with the same core message of the Oneness of the Creator, and to worship him and submit to him. As such, the followers of those prophets and messengers were called Submitters (Muslims in Arabic). Over time, those messages got corrupted. For example, Jesus Prayers of God be upon him, never claimed to be God or son of God, however, over time some people attributed this false idea to him, and we have the present day incarnation of Christianity.
But it's hearsay. And why does god need you to worship him? Is it bad for god if you don't worship him? If I don't pray, am I somehow hurting him?

  > Islam is the final revelation from God, and is preserved. It supersedes everything before it. Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him was sent to all of mankind until the end of time. He brought with him many miracles, and foretold many events in the future, some of which are happening today before our very eyes.
How can you claim it is the final version and nothing will come after it? Do you know the future? Can god change his mind?

You do realize that there have been tons and tons of religions before Islam and many of their followers shared the exact same view as you do? "Our version is the real truth! This time for sure!".

  > We have to accept all of those prophets that God sent, otherwise we're not Muslim.
Ok, if you want to be a Submitter than you have to be a... Submitter. Just please don't try to force others to be Submitters too.

  > On the other side, there are definitely man made religions (e.g. satanism) and many self proclaimed prophets that were not sent from God. Obviously, we don't give those people any credence, and we were warned about them in our texts.
All religions are man made. They are a theoretical concept to work with certain ideas about the supernatural.

  > Also, I've heard the fallacious argument before. Just because there are many religions does not mean that one of them isn't true. This is the genetic fallacy. Something that Dawkins and his ilk do all the time without realizing it. 
I cannot disprove your version of god. But as long as I don't see definite proof then I can't submit to this ideology.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#550
post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. I as mentioned in another post, God exists outside the realms of this reality, and is not bound by our laws. He created our laws, and he created logic, and they do not apply to him. Yea and once you leave our realm of logic nothing can be proven or argued about apart from stating that we don't know anything about it. To claim otherwise is futile. > We don't deny logic. If you study Islam, logic is one of the 3…

We apply logic where it applies, and we use other sources of evidence for where it doesn't apply. This is the same as we were talking about regarding science. Science and logic have their limitations, they are good at what they do within their realm of operation, but outside of it, we have to use other tools.

  > We apply logic where it applies, and we use other sources of evidence for where it doesn't apply
If you leave the realm of logic then really anything can be claimed. I claim there is a pink machine outside our universe which is printing universes. How do you know this not to be the case?
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