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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#151

Post by ibn_khaldun »

tsimionescu wrote: post #119
aliasxneo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of the Bible, it makes it explicitly clear that God is uncreated. Asking the question, "Who created an uncreated God?" doesn't make much sense in that case.

Of course, but then immediately leads to the question: if we admit that it is possible for God itself to be un-created, why can't the universe itself be uncreated as well?

The attributes between the universe and The Creator would need to be differentiated.

In other words, the properties of that which is uncreated would need to be defined so they can be distinguished from something that is created. These properties have to be understood and accepted as an exclusive set that cannot be "distributed" or "shared" among other beings; in order to dispel the notion that there can be multiple uncreated beings or beings that are created that share attributes with The Creator.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#154

Post by eis »

solarengineer wrote: post #96
eis wrote: post #80

Quoted post unavailable.

Here's how I understood it: "The Gods themselves are part of creation. Even if there were a Creator, he may not know for certain whether it was indeed him who created"

But that doesn't get us any further than "We don't know yet." It doesn't prove or disprove anything. By the same line of reasoning one could say there is no time at all and all our memory of the past is an illusion generated by a simulation. The linked video talks about this: there are an infinite amount of theories that one can come up with to explain the current state and it might not be possible with our current understanding to prove them wrong.

The problem I have with religious texts is they are very vague and evidently open to a lot of interpretation. And by talking about things like God and building a logical system out of wrong axioms that is then applied to daily life choices they actually can create real issues - we've had enough of them in history.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#155

Post by tsimionescu »

krapp wrote: post #135
aliasxneo wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a popular theory for a long time, although I think it's declined over the years. I don't recall the reasons why, though.

Probably the Big Bang and evidence of inflation and the CMB. There is a lot of credible evidence that our universe had a definite beginning.

Note that I wasn't arguing against the big bang, or even cosmology itself. I was only pointing out that the concept of God doesn't add anything to the conversation.

It's also important to note that the big bang theory completely leaves open the question of what there was in the tiny tiny universe before inflation. Basically, the current BBT describes how the universe evolved starting from some time t=t0 + 10^-36 seconds. But that leaves a gap after t0 but before this time.

Finally, the question of existence from nothing is traditionally extended to the supposed singularity that existed at t0 as well, though that is on shaker ground.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#156

Post by AnotherGoodName »

egello wrote: post #72
westcort wrote: post #69

We may not know the answer to how the universe began, but a time loop at the beginning of the universe is my favorite explanation. Gott and Li proposed this model and you can see Gott explain it elegantly here: https://youtu.be/raTqAyLikLU

The thing about time loop is that, how and when did it began? I just can't wrap my head around something being here, there and everywhere at all times.

You're right. In fact a time loop has the same something from nothing problem any other theory has.

Imagine a flatlander universe. Package up time in another dimension and you can represent their entire existence as a static 3d cube. Timeloops would just be a static torus in the cube.

The same is true of a 3 spatial dimension + 1 time dimension universe. You can view it as a static 4d tesseract. Timeloops are just a 4-taurus. Where did that 4 Taurus come from? It's the same something from nothing problem.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#157

Post by h2odragon »

cdelsolar wrote: post #113

Why is there even such a gigantic universe? Like what is the purpose of it - why was there a Big Bang? If I really think hard about these questions it makes me uncomfortable and anxious.

Why anxious? the answers to those questions, while interesting and entertaining, aren't relevant to you today. Just be glad you get to experience this tiny little part of the universe for the brief time you're here.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#158

Post by simondw »

shukantpal wrote: post #126
tqkxzugoaupvwqr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the creator exists outside their creation under different laws of physics (if any), who created the creator or how did the creator come to be? (I can’t watch the video right now.)

That question assumes the default state is they didn’t exist already

But how does this "uncaused cause" add anything to our understanding of the cosmos, beyond adding one more entity?

Why not say that God was created by God_1, who just already existed?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#159

Post by [deleted] »

jgrowl wrote: post #132

Therein lies the True eternal distinction between Reason and Faith. Reason is that which can be known and where it ceases becomes Faith. They are separate parallel structures, to mistake one for the other is folly. We know that everything we can see originated as a single point of one uniformly distributed substance. We know that everything we can see will return into one uniformly distributed substance (Heat and red…

[deleted]

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#160

Post by al_mandi »

egello wrote: post #72
westcort wrote: post #69

We may not know the answer to how the universe began, but a time loop at the beginning of the universe is my favorite explanation. Gott and Li proposed this model and you can see Gott explain it elegantly here: https://youtu.be/raTqAyLikLU

The thing about time loop is that, how and when did it began? I just can't wrap my head around something being here, there and everywhere at all times.

It's a metaphysical assumption, meaning beyond the realm of experimental science. Science has inherent limitations, and cannot be used to explain everything. This is a good starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If3cNUixEBM
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