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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#441

Post by eis »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #438

I think we're limited by our genetics. There's a limit to our species intelligence. To a monkey an iPhone is just a rock. To humans the universe is equivalent to a piece of chorizo on a telescope.

Yes we are limited by our genetics but what does that mean when you consider that we are starting to learn how to manipulate our genes?

Evolution doesn't seem to stop. Science is advancing at an increasing pace and the boundary is pushed forward each and every day. What might become of humans in a million years?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#442

Post by al_mandi »

0134340 wrote: post #435
al_mandi wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings. > so when making choices about others By living in society, someone is making choices on the behalf of another regardless of whether that society is…

>A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. Wow, I'm surprised you went there. To this day many denominations of Islam are still killing each other over the "correct" interpretation. You call out developed worlds as if they're immoral yet the most religious countries [0] also have a big overlap in having the most militant conflict [1]. Oh but they're happy, right? I w…

> To this day many denominations of Islam are still killing each other over the "correct" interpretation.

Yet, those denominations you speak of are minorities, and some are even supported by factions like the CIA to continue civil unrest, because it's in the interest of the West.

> also have a big overlap in having the most militant conflict

I'm who's surprised you went there. It's as if the last 100 years of history didn't mean much? The vast majority of those countries have been occupied and colonized by the West, and I'd argue that they continue to be to this day.

> Are Islamic countries generally free to criticize themselves so easily?

You can look up Islamic history to see to what high degree of responsibility those in charge were held. Read up on Omar ibn AlKhattab for example.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#443

Post by al_mandi »

eis wrote: post #422
al_mandi wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings. > so when making choices about others By living in society, someone is making choices on the behalf of another regardless of whether that society is…

> Not all texts are vague and open to interpretation. A proper religion with strong scholarly underpinnings like Islam has this issue figured out. The Quran itself calls out the issue, and Muslim scholars from the very beginning have a foundation on which to base rulings. I don't want to claim all are vague. Many are. If the foundation though is based upon an arbitrary claim of a god and unprovable claims that such g…

> If the foundation though is based upon an arbitrary claim of a god and unprovable claims that such god spoke to someone and gave us some rules then I cannot subscribe to that concept because any other concept with arbitrary rules is equaly valid and I wouldn't know which one to choose. And if I can't know which one to choose then that means there is no right or wrong choice, it is arbitrary.

Which is why you evaluate those claims and see what evidence they bring forth. We have a lot of proof and evidence in Islam. Some are listed on www.provingislam.com

> Life expectancy and quality of life has improved drastically in (not only) western countries over time while at the same time turning more secular.

Correlation vs causation.

> Thanks science

False dichotomy. No one is saying science isn't useful. As a matter of fact, many of today's foundational sciences and discoveries go back to the Islamic Golden Age. Great Muslim scholars like Al-Khararizmy (the word "algorithm" is a direct derivative of his name), Algebra (the science of Al-Jabr, an Arabic word), and many many more were because Islam pushed those people to seek knowledge and learn about the world around them. Many of those scholars saw studying and exploring the world around them as signs of God. This is something established in the Quran and Hadith.

> What's up with all the fighting between religious groups there?

Maybe the colonizing West that engaged in dirty divide and conquer tactics has something to do with it? Or maybe the fact that the US lied about WMD's to invade Iraq and they got away with it with no consequences, while leaving millions of Iraqis between dead and maimed and homeless. Same with Afghanistan. The amount of destruction caused to Muslim lands by the West is orders of magnitude more than any internal conflicts. And it's not like the West is some bastion of peace either, today Russia and Ukraine are fighting aren't they?

> The fact that some atheists said or did something that most people will agree is wrong does not mean all of atheists are wrong in the same way.

So tell me why are they wrong to say that rape is just a phenomenon or that incest is ok. On what basis, from a strictly atheistic materialistic world view are you going to make an opposite claim?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#444

Post by al_mandi »

eis wrote: post #379
al_mandi wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to believe that there was only one try. Exactly what he mentions in his talk, on what are you basing this belief? It's a metaphysical claim that is outside the realm of science. You just proved his point.

Erm, what? I disproved his point. He claims because us being in this unlikely universe is proof for a design. No, it's a logical fallacy as I outlined in the example of flipping coins. The video presenter is the guy who flipped 10 times heads and claims "See! God made this happen!" Can you please point to the exact time in the video where he mentions multiple tries? That would contradict his own point about the low c…

> Can you please point to the exact time in the video where he mentions multiple tries?

I was referring to what you wrote. You said that there's no reason that there weren't multiple tries to get the universe just right to support life. I'm saying that's a metaphysical claim you just made, which is outside the realm of science, which is the point the presenter was making.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#445

Post by al_mandi »

0134340 wrote: post #413
al_mandi wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to believe that there was only one try. Exactly what he mentions in his talk, on what are you basing this belief? It's a metaphysical claim that is outside the realm of science. You just proved his point.

It seems like he's wanting to borrow science or at least some logic when it supports his argument but when it comes to the gods, he wants to say they exist outside of science and logic. This is a common argument and it's not ultimately falsifiable, ie, 'I say it's true because you can't prove otherwise'. And so too do invisible flying fairies exist who render themselves outside the realms of science due to magic pixi…

And so is any other argument to attempt to explain what was before the universe. Those are outside the realms of science. And furthermore, just because something is not falsifiable does not make it untrue. We exist in this world after all, so something had to have happened at the start.

I posted that lecture as an intro to broaden people's perspectives. It is then a proof by induction to reach the correct religion that explains our world. Some signs are summarized on www.provingislam.com. There are lots of great scholars who have presented many proofs on the matter.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#446

Post by al_mandi »

eis wrote: post #409
al_mandi wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes a proper religion? And can you tell me how it agrees with science? One that is backed by proofs and evidence. Islam does not disagree with science. Your argument is not very different from can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot cary it? The answer is simple, it's a logical absurdity to even go there. God told us about his Attributes, and we are not to hold Him or His Attributes to our worldly logi…

> One that is backed by proofs and evidence. I have seen zero proofs for the existance of god. Not in your video or anywhere else. If such proof existed then that would be the biggest scientific breakthrough in history and it would be the absolute focus for science to understand more. > Your argument is not very different from can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot cary it? The answer is simple, it's a logical…

> If such proof existed then that would be the biggest scientific breakthrough i

You still continue to conflate science with God who exists outside the realms and is not bound by the laws of our world. He created logic, it does not apply to him. When He revealed to us his attributes, we are not ones to question whether they make sense to us or not.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#447

Post by jjcon »

jondeval wrote: post #295
jjcon wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Religious people who conceive of God as the creator, believing that the word 'creator' refers to the creation of the universe at some point in the past, are completely misunderstanding the use of the word and need to do some more homework. Can you explain what you mean here - I couldn’t follow

Sure. I'll try. There are two senses to understand the word creator. I'll illustrate both by analogies to the way 'we' create as people: (1) A violinist is creating the music that you are currently hearing. Here and now in the present. (2) A painter created a painting in the 19th century, and you can see the artifact on the wall in a museum. In the case of (1) the creator brings the song into being out of nothing. Mo…

Interesting, a distinction I’ve not thought too much about - I appreciate the extra explanation

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#448

Post by al_mandi »

0134340 wrote: post #417
al_mandi wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes a proper religion? And can you tell me how it agrees with science? One that is backed by proofs and evidence. Islam does not disagree with science. Your argument is not very different from can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot cary it? The answer is simple, it's a logical absurdity to even go there. God told us about his Attributes, and we are not to hold Him or His Attributes to our worldly logi…

>worldly logic So your argument stems from illogic? Surely you don't admit such do you? When I was religious, religion captured me by thinking 'that makes sense'. It used a minor amount of logic to convert me but ultimately it failed because it didn't stand up against my rigors in the end. Religion wants to ultimately refrain from the rigors of logic but when confronted, how does it defend itself? That's right, it tr…

> So your argument stems from illogic?

No. I as mentioned in another post, God exists outside the realms of this reality, and is not bound by our laws. He created our laws, and he created logic, and they do not apply to him.

We don't deny logic. If you study Islam, logic is one of the 3 methods to arrive at truth. The other two are observations (not dissimilar from experimental science) and the final is truthfully relayed news (الخبر الصادق). We take all of those into consideration when studying our reality.

> When I was religious

Were you Muslim though? Not all religions have these rigors.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#449

Post by tsol »

lupire wrote: post #436
qsdf38100 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origin can’t be explained, because if it was explained it wouldn’t be the origin anymore. So the question of the origin is ill-posed. Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. In the end, nothing makes sense. God must be laughing at us.

Even secondary states might be impossible to explain, by the GP argument. > Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. The origin has infinite history. > God must be laughing at us. No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history. What if the history is cyclic? Then there is no origin.

>No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history.

God could have no beginning. This makes sense because God exists outside of our conception of spacetime. We have to have a beginning, because in the universe we live in the laws of time and nature say everything has to have a beginning.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#450

Post by al_mandi »

eis wrote: post #428
tresqotheq wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me, how many scientific "claims" that you rely on a day to day basis, have you verified personally? Or How many such claims can be verified with a single average person's limited resource?

> Tell me, how many scientific "claims" that you rely on a day to day basis, have you verified personally? Many. Science claims when I push the brakes in my car I will slow down due to the friction. Seems to be working pretty well so far. How does religion explain it? You fell into the trap of thinking that each person needs to verify each claim in order to put general trust in science. That's not how it works. If I…

As I mentioned elsewhere, you cannot prove everything only by science. In Islam, we have logic and the honest news as two other sources we rely on to study and deduce facts about our reality.
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