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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

521–530 of 610 posts

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#521
post #111

John Wheeler popularized the term "it from bit" and the idea of a participatory universe. The limits of human observation aside, it could be that the universe itself doesn't really know how it began. If a superheated plasma is indifferent to being in a 5 dimensional black hole as opposed to a state where only space exists, then, in a sense, there isn't any difference between the two explanations (given that the plasm…

The origin can’t be explained, because if it was explained it wouldn’t be the origin anymore. So the question of the origin is ill-posed. Yet there has to be an origin because an infinite history makes no sense. In the end, nothing makes sense. God must be laughing at us.

>an infinite history makes no sense

Yes, it does. It's just an uncomfortable notion for people raised in Western philosophy.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#522
post #503
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, because God is, like us, the descendant of something else, or else has infinite history. God could have no beginning. This makes sense because God exists outside of our conception of spacetime. We have to have a beginning, because in the universe we live in the laws of time and nature say everything has to have a beginning.

1) You just rephrased 'God has infinite history' I don't see the point. 2) 'nature say everything has to have a beginning' uh?? If you imagine the Universe expanding then contracting cyclically where is the beginning?

Which comes first, x/2 I think mathematical statements don't have causes but constraints. Could be that the universe is somehow constrained to exist because of some incredibly abstract truth.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#523

I’m a big fan of the blog, but disagree with this entry. Her argument could be applied to the idea of the Big Bang itself: we can never receive light from any further back than the “surface of last scattering”, so the notion of a hotter prior epoch is an extrapolation. The extrapolation is a good one as it uses independently-tested laws of evolution, at least to the point these laws presumably break down, as she poin…

She does apply it to the big bang as well. She says that it's just the simplest explanation we have and that it's probably wrong too.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#524
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ratio of babble to sound reasoning is much better in science than in religion. That being said, there is also a lot of science babble and we should call it out and try to keep it at a as low amount as possible. The core tenets of science are pretty sound. Religions are based on a lot of completely made up stuff. They are not 100% bad of course. But we seriously can do much much better than that. I think t…

Science is not a replacement for religion because science is not a moral code. It can tell you how something can be done, but not what is right or wrong to do. Attempts to develop such moral codes by reasoning from first principles turns out to be incredibly difficult and can easily lead to degenerate conclusions. In another comment you ask what scientism is. We can define it as an attempt to turn science into religi…

  > Science is not a replacement for religion because science is not a moral code. It can tell you how something can be done, but not what is right or wrong to do. Attempts to develop such moral codes by reasoning from first principles turns out to be incredibly difficult and can easily lead to degenerate conclusions.
I have not seen any proof of that. Neither did I see proof that only religion can give you the correct moral code. As I mentioned a few times: given that there a several disagreeing religions they can't be all right. So it's not the fact that something is a religion that gives a correct moral code.

Even if something is difficult, it does not mean that I instead resort to making up some stories and declare that's the right moral code.

  > In another comment you ask what scientism is. We can define it as an attempt to turn science into religion. It retains the surface look and feel of science, but isn't science. HN has a lot of people who follow scientism - you can find them getting frustrated on any story about science asking why other people can't just Believe The Scientists like they do.
Well if that were the definition of scientism then I wouldn't subscribe to scientism. That would sound pretty much like the opposite of science and an attempt to subvert and abuse it.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#525
post #505
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you choose to believe that a non-falsifiable theory is actually true. Otherwise it's not faith, merely a hypothesis.

As anyone who’s watched Dinosaur Train could tell you, a hypothesis is “an idea you can test”.

Dinosaur Train doesn't get everything right. An untestable hypothesis is still a hypothesis. Even an unfalsifiable hypothesis is a hypothesis. But testable hypotheses are better then untestable (and unfalsifiable) ones because, well, you can test them to see if they are false.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#526
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Science is, effectively, religion/faith No. No no no no no!!! Science is a process . The result of that process is explanations for phenomena. And the reason this matters is that the particular explanations produced by the scientific process turn out to give you the power to make extraordinarily accurate predictions about (certain aspects of) the future, and thus give you a tremendous amount of leverage in becoming…

You may see the above as a critique of science: I actually consider it a positive aspect that puts it way above traditional religions. The fact that I recognize there are both faith and religious elements to science only makes it easier to explain how and why science is better than religion. Note that science similarly includes a lot of areas where our predictions are not "extraordinarily accurate" (all the statistic…

The scientific method lacks two features that distinguish religions from other human activities:

1. A doctrine whose source is authority (usually but not always a deity) rather than observation and

2. Rituals based on that doctrine

One might argue that the actual human practice of science sometimes involves the acceptance of authoritative doctrine (e.g. peer-reviewed papers) and associated rituals (e.g. conferences), but that is not quite true because the rituals are not based on the doctrine. Scientific conferences are not held because there is a peer-reviewed paper that says that they should be, they are held because empirically they help to advance the scientific process (or at least did in the past). Religious rituals exist entirely because of authoritative doctrine. There is no reason for (say) communion or baptism other than what is written in the Bible or proclaimed by the church.

> science similarly includes a lot of areas where our predictions are not "extraordinarily accurate"

Sure. Science isn't perfect. The view it provides us into the future isn't flawless, it's just vastly better than anything else humans have ever tried.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#527
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is not a religion. If scientism means thinking that science is the best tool we have right now to explain reality then I guess yea I'm pro science. But it's very far from a religion. BTW science does not claim to know it all or even be able to know it all. In fact it is an important part of science to find the limits of science.

The “war” between religion and science as you are attempting to draw here, is in fact a fantasy, an illusion, the fruit of a tragic misunderstanding. First, in a very real sense, the modern physical sciences came from religion. The great founders of science—Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Descartes, etc.—were, without exception, trained in ecclesially sponsored schools and universities. It was under the aegis of…

  >  The “war” between religion and science as you are attempting to draw here, is in fact a fantasy, an illusion, the fruit of a tragic misunderstanding.
The fact of the matter is that persecution of scientists based on religious grounds is a bitter reality. Denial of that is the fantasy.

  > First, in a very real sense, the modern physical sciences came from religion. The great founders of science—Kepler, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Descartes, etc.—were, without exception, trained in ecclesially sponsored schools and universities. It was under the aegis of the church that they took in their physics, their astronomy, and their mathematics. More specifically, they learned in those institutions two essentially theological truths necessary for the emergence of the experimental sciences—namely, that the universe is not God and that the universe, in every nook and cranny, is marked by intelligibility. If nature were divine—as indeed it is considered to be in many religions, philosophies, and mysticisms—then it could never be an apt subject for observation, analysis, and experimentation. And if nature were simply chaotic, void of form, it would never yield up the harmonies and patterned intelligibilities that scientists readily seek. When these two truths, which are both a function of the doctrine of creation, obtain, the sciences can get underway.
This is also full of logical fallacies. Just because some scientists had been also religious to varying degrees does not mean that science can only emerge from religion. Even more so if they had little choice because being religious was the norm and they would have in many cases had little access to universities had they openly spoken against religion.

Science does not need the doctrine of creation which is a fairly recent concept. Do you think that nobody performed science before these religions existed? The first people who figured out how to make a fire were scientists and not preachers. Do you think people who are not theists are not able to do science? These claims are mindboggling.

Here is a list of famous atheist scientists some which are at on equally high levels as names you quoted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_an...

From Bell to Zuse, they seem to have done just fine without believing in creationism or religion at all.

  > Second, when science and theology are properly understood, they are not in conflict, since they are not competing for primacy on the same playing field, like opposing football teams. Utilizing the scientific method, the physical sciences deal with events, objects, dynamics, and relationships within the empirically verifiable order. Theology, employing an entirely different method, deals with God and the things of God—and God is not an object in the world, not a reality circumscribed within the context of nature. As Thomas Aquinas put it, God is not ens summum (highest being), but rather ipsum esse (the act of being as such)—which is to say, God is not a being among beings, but instead the reason why there is an empirically observable universe at all. In this way, he is like the author of a richly complex novel. Charles Dickens never appears as a character in any of his sprawling narratives, yet he is the reason why any of those characters exist at all. Accordingly, the sciences, as such, can never adjudicate the question of God’s existence nor speak of his activity or attributes. Another type of rationality—not in competition with scientific rationality—is required for the determination of those matters.
If religion was all about the things outside our physical realm then I'd be fine with it. Everyone is free to believe in a god if that somehow helps them in life. But the problem is that religion does not keep itself to the realm outside physics but touches many aspects of real life and tries to dictate even the life of other people who do not agree to the arbitrary rules of some religion. And this is why religion clashes with science. If religion was playing on a totally different football field than science all would be good. But religion plays on a field that overlaps with the field of science.

  > And this brings me to my third point: as parent said, _scientism_ is not science. Sadly rampant today, especially among the young, scientism is the reduction of all knowledge to the scientific form of knowledge. The undeniable success of the physical sciences and the extraordinary usefulness of the technologies to which they have given rise have produced in the minds of many this conviction, but it represents a tragic impoverishment. A chemist might be able to tell us the chemical makeup of the paints that Michelangelo used on the Sistine Ceiling, but he couldn’t, qua scientist, tell us a thing about what makes that work of art so beautiful. A geologist might be able to tell us the stratification of the earth below the city of Chicago, but he could never, again qua scientist, tell us whether that city is being justly or unjustly governed. There isn’t a trace of the scientific method in Romeo and Juliet, but who would be so stupid as to assert that that play tells us nothing true about the nature of love. In a similar way, the great texts of the Bible and the theological tradition are not “scientific,” but they nevertheless speak the profoundest truths about God, creation, sin, redemption, grace, etc. Both the cause and effect of scientism, sadly, is the attenuation of the liberal arts in our institutions of higher education. Rather than appreciating literature, history, philosophy, and religion as conduits of objective truth, many today relegate these to the arena of subjective feeling or subject them to withering ideological criticism.
We have very different understandings of the word truth. Truth is something that has been proven and can be verified beyond doubt. Stories about gods are not truths. Tales are not to be taken for truths - they are merely that, tales.

  > My fourth and final point is this: Galileo is one paragraph in one chapter of a very long book. The great astronomer is often invoked as the patron saint of heroic scientists struggling to free themselves from the obscurantism and irrationality of religion. The censorship of his books by the Church, and the great scientist’s virtual imprisonment at the behest of the pope, is taken as the dark paradigm of the Church/science relationship. Obviously, the Galileo episode was hardly the Church’s finest moment, and in point of fact, John Paul II, expressing real contrition, explicitly apologized for it. But to use it as the lens for viewing the play between faith and science is crucially inadequate. There have been, from the earliest days of the modern sciences, thousands of deeply religious people involved in scientific research and investigation. To name just a handful: Copernicus, revolutionary cosmologist and a third order Dominican; Nicholas Steno, the father of geology and a bishop of the Church; Louis Pasteur, one of the founders of microbiology and a devout Catholic layman; Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics and an Augustinian friar; Georges Lemaître, formulator of the Big Bang theory of cosmic origins and a Catholic priest; Mary Kenneth Keller, the first woman in the United States to receive a doctorate in computer science and a Catholic religious sister. I believe it is fair to say that all of these figures understood the fundamental points that I have laid out in this article and therefore saw that they could be utterly devoted to both their science and their faith. 
None of these examples though shows that we need religion for science. The fact that some famous scientists made religion and science work for themselves is fine but what does this show us? That all religions work for all scientists? Clearly not.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all. Would you fly on an airplane engineered by someone trained in engineering, or a plane engineered by someone who relied only on inspiration from a deity? Would you go to the hospital with doctors who practice typical Western medicine, or a hospital in which the doctors only pray over you? Etc.

>Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all. Have you heard about the replication crisis in your "western science"?

There is no "western" science. It's just science and it works the same wherever you are. Same as there is no "western mathematics".

Why are you and a few other people on the side of religion argueing so much against the west? Science vs religion does not care what the longitude you find yourself in. Or is "eastern science" somehow different?

Science is not perfect, how could it as it is made up of humans and we clearly are not perfect. It's still waaaaaay better than religious doctrines.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no, that’s not moving goalposts.

It is, because you can verify the claims of a holy man if you go meditate in a cave for a couple of decades. Since no one is willing to do that, people used to accept their word for a fact. The same is the case with science claim that cannot be verified by common men who depend on them. That they are also "believing", might be hard to get through the thick skull of these modern "science" gushers. They fail to see tha…

  >  It is, because you can verify the claims of a holy man if you go meditate in a cave for a couple of decades.
This is the most ridicolous thing I've read in a decade on HN. Congrats I guess?

You can readily go and verify a lot of claims of science and I gave you an example in another comment. What claims about god can I go and verify? I'm eager to try.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all. Would you fly on an airplane engineered by someone trained in engineering, or a plane engineered by someone who relied only on inspiration from a deity? Would you go to the hospital with doctors who practice typical Western medicine, or a hospital in which the doctors only pray over you? Etc.

>Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all. Have you heard about the replication crisis in your "western science"?

Yes, I have. The next step beyond thinking "Aha! Replication crisis!" is that the replication crisis is directing you towards its correction: the goal is replication, correct? And in many instances we fall short of that goal. The corrective action is to refine standards to which we hold scientific research. It is not correct to say, "Darnitall, we have a replication crisis, science is no better able to get us closer to things which are true than religion, divination, palm reading, astrology, and coin flipping." And that is exactly the sense in which the replication crisis is improving our ability to figure out which things are more likely to be true than others.
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