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We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really fair. For example, Galileo is often given as an example of someone who was persecuted by the Church for his ideas - without often mentioning that his ideas were championed by the Pope and the Jesuit order before some misunderstandings. Also, a lot of the basis of science comes from members of the Church, occultists, or others living in deeply fundamentalist environments (Newton being a famous father…

Where and when, throughout all human history, have there been significant populations not subject to a religion? It seems strange to suggest that demonstrably unscientific belief systems with incompatible differences tied mainly to geographic location somehow have a unifying impact on scientific progress. It's kind of like saying a person contributed to science because of their hair color while simultaneously concedi…

One would hope your religion has more impact on it's followers than a box of hair dye.

The heirarchal ordering of some faiths, the commitment to truth, the belief in the veracity of the written word, the ability to support monastic orders are all functions of a society that believes. The belief that the individual speaks the truth and should be listened to, are the mechanisms that allow science to flourish.

Some scientists act as if you can have that without the faith. They focus only on the parts of history which support the contemporary scientist view that if we could just free ourselves from the whacky religionists we could get on with the /real/ science, which is nearly always an idea that reflects a minor variation on what has already come before.

If only the scientist knew the history ideas (including faith), could we have new things and not retreads of some millenia-dead philosopher.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#492
post #389

This is what I don't get: "... if the universe expands today, this means if we look back in time the matter must have been squeezed together, so the density was higher. If the universe expands today, how does it follow that it was also expanding yesterday, or a million years ago? Maybe universe expands, then contracts again cyclically?

> If the universe expands today, how does it follow that it was also expanding yesterday The universe is not only expanding, it's expanding faster and faster... it's very hard to see how anything could explain the rate of expansion could have started off negative, then instead of just collapsing into itself, it reverted somehow and then started accelerating. The simple explanation is that it has always expanded, thou…

I agree it is a simple plausible explanation and Occam's Razor argues that simple explanations are the most likely. So yes maybe it is the most likely explanation. But that is not the same as saying we know it is the explanation.

Big Bang itself is a counter-intuitive explanation: Something came out of nothing.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#493
post #381

This is what I don't get: "... if the universe expands today, this means if we look back in time the matter must have been squeezed together, so the density was higher. If the universe expands today, how does it follow that it was also expanding yesterday, or a million years ago? Maybe universe expands, then contracts again cyclically?

> Maybe universe expands, then contracts again cyclically? It's possible, but you're going to have to come up with a theory for why whatever 'force' is driving the expansion goes from negative, to positive, and back.

Is there a good theory as to why Universe is expanding and acceleration its expansion? Dark Matter? Dark Energy? Cosmological Constant? Those are more like "We can not really explain it so we assume there is something like "Dark Energy" which causes it all.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound very knowledgable about this, so I guess I'm mostly addressing any readers of this thread when I recommend Lost in Math as a prerequisite for making that judgement. Of the four I mentioned, it's the most personal / autobiographical / reflective. She's obvious pissed off, and that should be taken into account when evaluating her assertions. Woit is way more pissed off, and probably the better mathematician.…

If there was a time were doubting string theory was career suicide, its wasn't in 2000 and certainly not 2010, those where the years when Woit was riding high on his book and "crisis in physics" was a popular phrase. Honestly I think the biggest problem is that you have the timeline wrong, string theory reached its zenith in the 90's, but already by 2002 Woit could give it a good public kicking and mostly get praise…

I think you're correct that I slipped at least a decade, maybe two in the way I painted that, and I appreciate you keeping the dialog level-set on important mile markers. I hate when I spread the worst kind of misinformation which is the almost right kinda but off by a big, important term sort.

It seems to be a product of not realizing (or wanting to realize) how old I am! I just checked and Witten won his Fields in 1990, I would have sworn it was like 5-8 years later than that, to pick one key milestone. Getting old is an experience!

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of the Bible, it makes it explicitly clear that God is uncreated. Asking the question, "Who created an uncreated God?" doesn't make much sense in that case.

To be clear, it makes a ton of sense to ask such a question. The underlying assumption to the question is why only one thing is allowed to be uncreated .. ? Are there others like them, much like here on Earth where we have many authors writing many books? The Bible doesn't answer those at all, it starts in media res (despite its first three words!) (I have other complaints about such a God but)

If God exists outside of time, it's not possible that he had a beginning. A common trap I see people fall into when thinking about God is that they struggle to think in any other terms but the ones they're familiar with.

Because how can we even apprehend anything existing outside of time?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who caused the universe is already out of bounds. "caused" can mean a different thing. Imagine causualty in a 3d FPS video game, and the creation of the game itself. Though they are similar in semantics, one is different from the other.

Ah, well in that case, the parent poster can just say that asking about the cause of the creator is a valid thing to talk about, because they mean a subtly different kind of ‘cause’ than the kind of cause you told them wasn’t valid to talk about outside of the universe.

They can, but that wouldn't be too interesting to anyone in this universe. Or that it how I read it. Just like a being in a game wondering what caused the game company/programmer to write the game..

The reason will have no consequence to the beings in the game, and thus they will only be interested in the causuality mechanism within the game..

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving goalposts much? > which are produced from them actually seem to work. Oh yea, religeious things also seem to work. For example, prayers and other religeous offerings. That is how these things survive so long.

Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all. Would you fly on an airplane engineered by someone trained in engineering, or a plane engineered by someone who relied only on inspiration from a deity? Would you go to the hospital with doctors who practice typical Western medicine, or a hospital in which the doctors only pray over you? Etc.

>Except when we test them, they don’t seem to work after all.

Have you heard about the replication crisis in your "western science"?

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving goalposts much? > which are produced from them actually seem to work. Oh yea, religeious things also seem to work. For example, prayers and other religeous offerings. That is how these things survive so long.

The fact that things seem to work does not mean that they actually do work. We all are subject to cognitive biases which can trip us up. Most people aren’t very good at recognizing when that happens. That’s why these things survive so long.

>The fact that things seem to work does not mean that they actually do work.

Well, the same can be applied to your "western science" as well..

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving goalposts much? > which are produced from them actually seem to work. Oh yea, religeious things also seem to work. For example, prayers and other religeous offerings. That is how these things survive so long.

And no, that’s not moving goalposts.

It is, because you can verify the claims of a holy man if you go meditate in a cave for a couple of decades.

Since no one is willing to do that, people used to accept their word for a fact. The same is the case with science claim that cannot be verified by common men who depend on them.

That they are also "believing", might be hard to get through the thick skull of these modern "science" gushers. They fail to see that "science" can be just a label, strapped to anything businesses wants to sell.

Re: We don't know how the universe began, and we will never know

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claims of a holy man are not. How come? The claims of holy men are verified by other holy men.

Man is imperfect. The scientific method is a process that verifies, humans implement and observe the output. With religion, humans "observe" more than they can verify. Religion admits as much that it lacks verification, that's why it has faith. Religion wants the best of both worlds, saying it is endowed with logic and verification yet when pushed you get the same tired argument about faith and 'gods exist outside lo…

>Man is imperfect.

Yes

>The scientific method is a process that verifies...

And this process is done by imperfect men...who you end up trusting...

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