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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#321

Post by welterde »

mantas wrote: post #74
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter what magic plan anyone comes up with it would take years to implement. Nuclear, more insulation, hydrogen, new gas fields. It's almost winter already.

More insulation is double edge sword. I moved into a super-energy-efficient house here in north/east Europe. Heating in winter is damn cheap. But retention works in summer too… so I had to get air conditioner :( And electrical ventilation is a must all year round to get air fresh, keep module at bay ant not loose energy living with open windows. Energy saving in bottom line will be abysmal :(

The key is not to let the heat in in the first place during the summer. Thick external shutters do wonders in that regard. Well insulated windows alone will let in the heat (in form of light) but not out again (IR).

I really wonder why these shutters are not way more common than they are.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#322

Post by grandmczeb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #265
mbreese wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t true. In most places I’ve been, electrical lines have all been elevated on poles. Where I currently live, there is a pretty intensive line clearing program each spring to keep the lines clear. Even in places where house level lines were buried, the middle transmission lines were still elevated. And I believe all high voltage transmission lines are above ground. The difference is that California historicall…

> This isn’t true. Most countries don’t have regular residential streets with power lines up in the air.

The fires are mostly caused by large transmission lines outside of urban areas, not local lines on residential streets.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#323

Post by candiodari »

merely-unlikely wrote: post #294
bjourne wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that. But this is not true. Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets. Look at the actual circumstances rather than on mathematical models with no bearing on reality.

> Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets. Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity. Over time the high prices incentivizes bringing more power generation and transport online, which is exactly what we are seeing - new/reopened nuclear, coal, and nat…

> Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity.

In other words, the price is the marginal price: at the very edge. What is the highest price consumers want to pay for X amount of electricity. You should split it up: say price of electricity is 5$. That means:

Electricity produced at 1$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 2$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 3$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 4$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 5$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 6$: does not sell, plants get paused

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#324

Post by candiodari »

seydor wrote: post #282
kitkat_new wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this doesn't change anything. If supply was higher, e.g. using solar/wind/nuclear/coal, prices would be lower

that would work only if non-gas sources generated enough so that gas is not needed at all. As it is right now, solar producers are getting a bonanza in profits because they are being paid at exorbitant prices. At this level, they have no incentive to ramp up production to remove gas from the equation.

> At this level, they have no incentive to ramp up production

In a monopoly situation, yes. Luckily there is competition, and at this level their competition has a great incentive to ramp up capacity. Which, frankly, is going to make them ramp up production so they can capture a bigger piece of the market when the situation isn't quite as ridiculous as it is today anymore.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#325

Post by atemerev »

raverbashing wrote: post #284
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

And yet, right now, solar is 20% of the electricity on the grid in Germany. Wind is 15% (per the electrictymaps app) Sure it would be better if it was a sunnier place, still...

It would be even more better if they didn't close their nuclear power plants. I am still shocked how sad and untimely this decision had been.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#326

Post by Sakos »

sph wrote: post #66
bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases? Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52758

> The United Kingdom has the second-largest LNG regasification capacity in Europe (4.7 Bcf/d), and it can export up to 2.5 Bcf/d of natural gas to the European Union via the Interconnector pipeline into Belgium and the BBL pipeline into the Netherlands. Regasified LNG volumes in the United Kingdom averaged 2.9 Bcf/d from January through May 2022, and regasification facilities ran at a 63% utilization rate, up from 30% last year. Exports from the United Kingdom via interconnecting pipelines to the European Union have run at close to maximum rates since March 2022.

I would assume because of this.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#327

Post by atemerev »

zionic wrote: post #313
pojzon wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive tried to explain this issue to EVs fanatics, but nobody listens. Anytime you mention energy transmision issues - you get total backlash. We wasted EU money on pointless stuff while we could have upgraded our transit cables etc.

I’m just exhausted from arguing with the electrically illiterate. HVDC makes transmission from state to state trivial at almost no loss. We should have a national HVDC grid so that a breeze in Texas might power a toaster in Connecticut. Instead we have another $XX Billion for Ukraine. Another $13B here for a new carrier we’ll never need etc etc. So much waste everywhere while fundamental problems go unsolved.

The fall of Ukraine will mean the beginning of the new Soviet Union (but even _more_ evil), and most probably a world war, so it should be prevented at all costs possible. Not event to mention that the invasion is plainly evil, and should be repealed.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#328

Post by PeterisP »

colechristensen wrote: post #279
colechristensen wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fun ideas for what to do with a megawatt hour for $10? (that aren't mining crypto)

I'll start: Load up a truck with several tons of batteries, charge them, and ship the electricity south.

Not really worth it.

A ballpark calculation - ignoring any infrastructure and time for charging/offloading, assuming you get the batteries and the electricity for free, using Tesla batteries as an example, a MWh of them would weigh more than 6 tons; so freight truck can carry at most 2-3 MWh worth of batteries (density is likely to be an issue) and the sale price of that truck full of electricity even at the current outrageous prices is just 1000 eur, perhaps 2000 if you drive all the way across Europe. Shipping cargo on such trucks costs something like 1.5 eur/km nowadays (we don't have cheap self-driving electric trucks yet..) so if you'd have to drive more than a few hundred km (and you have to drive the batteries back!), you'd be better off using these trucks to ship something else than electricity.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#329

Post by ClumsyPilot »

origin_path wrote: post #286
dazc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We generate a lot of this electricity by burning gas which we have to buy from the market where prices are set relative to global supply and demand. This is why we originally stopped mining coal - because Russian gas was so cheap at the time that it was a no-brainer. What could possibly go wrong?

UK stopped mining coal mostly in the 1980s when Russia was still the Soviet Union. The cause was not Russian gas which isn't a direct substitute for coal anyway and especially not back then, but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreli…

is it fair to call it disfunctional? Are you expecting to compete on price with countries where workers have no rights, no health and safety and live a dog's life?

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#330

Post by merely-unlikely »

candiodari wrote: post #323
merely-unlikely wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets. Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity. Over time the high prices incentivizes bringing more power generation and transport online, which is exactly what we are seeing - new/reopened nuclear, coal, and nat…

> Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity. In other words, the price is the marginal price: at the very edge. What is the highest price consumers want to pay for X amount of electricity. You should split it up: say price of electricity is 5$. That means: Electrici…

Which is exactly how I would expect it to work. Now if producers expect prices to remain high, or for there to be repeated spikes in price, I would expect the $1, $2, $3, and maybe $4 producers to invest in additional production or storage over time to capture additional marketshare and thereby profits. Of course the "over time" part is important since that process can't happen overnight and is constrained by labor and components.
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