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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#261

Post by seydor »

the current crisis, for most european countries, is totally due to the failure of the EU energy market. The electiricy prices are set by the highest generator, which currently is natural gas. So , eventhough southern countries use less than 20-15% gas, their prices soar because they are determined by gas.

Spain and portugal are the only countries which managed to get an exception to offset this mechanism months ago, by effectively capping the gas prices and not allowing it to go bonkers.

The rest of the EU should explain itself to its citizens. These levels of prices do not represent the cost of energy but the stupid continuation of a supposedly free market in time of war.

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/europes-power...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#262

Post by toast0 »

bsaul wrote: post #63
dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how a market works. You say "Czechs" but it's Czech producers and Czech consumers (respectively) making those transactions. Where the market is situated is irrelevant. If you're making electricity that cheaply right now you are indeed getting rich, and so you should. The market is what is doing something about it. Prices will moderate over time as inefficient producers are pushed out and as consumers reduce th…

Rules for this market are a lot more complex than a straightforward producer / consumer one though. That give a lot of room for biased / non-optimal behaviors For example, only gaz-based electricity producers « needs » to be paid such a high price. Nuclear or renewable would be perfectly fine with much lower price. Or, if we had not one market, but one market per type of energy used to produce electricity, we would a…

There's one market for grid delivered electricity because within the grid, electricity is mostly fungible. There's details of course, but if I need X kW @ 240VAC to run my house, business, or factory, my equipment doesn't care if it's from wind, solar, nuclear, or lemon batteries, as long as it's within the specifications, well synchronized and continuous.

There's some amount of market preference for different generation types, but that's a small portion of the load, so it's handled outside of the grid operation marketplace. It's also true that grids with limited interconnection have separate markets.

You could run a grid on a cost plus basis, but you lose the benefits of market economics as well as the negatives.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#263

Post by seydor »

logicchains wrote: post #257
bjourne wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that just moves the question. Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce? Furthermore, only 15% of Germany's power production comes from natural gas ( https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... ) and the market price has "only" tripled in the last year ( https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/25/europes-gas-pr... ) while electricity prices h…

>Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce? Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that. >This is price gouging. If electricity producers had enough pricing power to set the price to whatever they wanted without competition they'd already have done so years ago. Again, price is a function…

No, the EU wholesale market uses a marginal price, that does not reflect the cost of generation (supply), but the highest cost available at any moment sets the price for everyone (at least as far as i understand). It s a free market but prices are set by a very inflexible rule.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#264

Post by 323 »

seydor wrote: post #261

the current crisis, for most european countries, is totally due to the failure of the EU energy market. The electiricy prices are set by the highest generator, which currently is natural gas. So , eventhough southern countries use less than 20-15% gas, their prices soar because they are determined by gas. Spain and portugal are the only countries which managed to get an exception to offset this mechanism months ago,…

If that were true the price difference would be quickly arbitraged away by energy traders. They would buy this "cheap" energy you speak of and sell it at the "inflated" market price, thus converging them to the same price. And yes, they would find a way to bypass the "mandatory fake price".

> Listening to European Electricity Traders Is Very, Very Scary. Keeping the lights on in Europe this winter may prove more difficult than governments are currently admitting.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-08-26/europe...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#265

Post by chrisseaton »

mbreese wrote: post #243
chrisseaton wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most places electricity cables are buried. In California they have them blowing around in the trees so they start fires.

This isn’t true. In most places I’ve been, electrical lines have all been elevated on poles. Where I currently live, there is a pretty intensive line clearing program each spring to keep the lines clear. Even in places where house level lines were buried, the middle transmission lines were still elevated. And I believe all high voltage transmission lines are above ground. The difference is that California historicall…

> This isn’t true.

Most countries don’t have regular residential streets with power lines up in the air.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#266

Post by seydor »

323 wrote: post #264
seydor wrote: post #261

the current crisis, for most european countries, is totally due to the failure of the EU energy market. The electiricy prices are set by the highest generator, which currently is natural gas. So , eventhough southern countries use less than 20-15% gas, their prices soar because they are determined by gas. Spain and portugal are the only countries which managed to get an exception to offset this mechanism months ago,…

If that were true the price difference would be quickly arbitraged away by energy traders. They would buy this "cheap" energy you speak of and sell it at the "inflated" market price, thus converging them to the same price. And yes, they would find a way to bypass the "mandatory fake price". > Listening to European Electricity Traders Is Very, Very Scary. Keeping the lights on in Europe this winter may prove more diff…

It's not possible, everyone gets the same price.

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/europes-power...

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#267

Post by eptcyka »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #176
google234123 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge fusion reactor in the sky that isn't available in the evening or when it's cloudy.

Remember that "transport" includes "to storage", which in turn includes some of the most efficient batteries in the form of connected reservoirs located at different heights so that gravity does the discharging work.

Also remember that there is a limited supply of single-use, liquid battery that was pre-charged long ago, but unfortunately it's exhaust is hopelessly harmful.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#268

Post by 323 »

seydor wrote: post #266
323 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true the price difference would be quickly arbitraged away by energy traders. They would buy this "cheap" energy you speak of and sell it at the "inflated" market price, thus converging them to the same price. And yes, they would find a way to bypass the "mandatory fake price". > Listening to European Electricity Traders Is Very, Very Scary. Keeping the lights on in Europe this winter may prove more diff…

It's not possible, everyone gets the same price. https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/europes-power...

According to this theory the price of energy should be the same in all of Europe, since it's the same mandated price. But it's not according to article graph.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#270

Post by pclmulqdq »

nixass wrote: post #201
pclmulqdq wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have people considered battery trucks? I don't mean battery-powered trucks, but trucks full of batteries. It seems kind of silly when you can use hydrogen or natural gas in your trucks instead, but battery trucks may be the lowest-loss form of long-distance electricity transport.

Why not then just charge batteries where you need them and keep them at place for when the Sun goes to sleep? Why would you transport batteries around?

Because some places have excess amounts of hydropower and other places have huge energy shortfalls. Not everyone is using solar/wind power. It is a pretty straightforward arbitrage. I have no idea if it's worth doing, though.
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