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Day ahead electricity prices for EU

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Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#291

Post by seydor »

fest wrote: post #15

At the current electricity prices, break even point for household PV installations even in coldish climate (Latvia, Eastern Europe) is on the order of 3-4 years without subsidies. Granted, it does not solve the problem that the energy I'll spend in the fall/winter has to come from somewhere but financially it is at the very least closer to being balanced out. Also, this is in a country, where the net metering system…

But if too many people buy panels, then europe will stop burning gas, the price will go down fast, and their profits will evaporate

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#292

Post by Joeri »

bjourne wrote: post #60

Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.

Market price is based on the price of the most expensive megawatt produced. The price moves up and down to balance production with consumption, a necessity for every grid, and producers set prices at which they are willing to inject quantities.

The current problem is that in europe a lot of the electricity is made by gas plants and those plants are seeing their costs rise. They therefore increase the price at which they are willing to inject capacity, and that means the market price moves up because that power is needed to satisfy demand. Gas plant operators are not making a lot of profit.

Because every party injecting power at market rates (some of it is actually locked up in long term contracts) is paid the market rate, those not using gas to produce power are actually the ones making record profits. Wind is literally making windfall profits. There are talks of having an excess profit tax because right now governments are going into debt to finance energy subsidies that line the pockets of wind and nuclear operators (and of vladimir putin).

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#293

Post by seydor »

Cantinflas wrote: post #9

AFAIK Spain prices are not "real" in the sense that gas prices have been "capped" and electricity users have to pay generation companies that use gas a variable fee to compensate that cap. Real end-user price is likely double

This is what every country should do. Basically putin is extorting europe through its marginal pricing.

BTW spain's prices are more "real" in the sense that they better reflect the cost of generation. It's the EU market's prices that are fake.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#294

Post by merely-unlikely »

bjourne wrote: post #272
logicchains wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce? Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that. >This is price gouging. If electricity producers had enough pricing power to set the price to whatever they wanted without competition they'd already have done so years ago. Again, price is a function…

> Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that. But this is not true. Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets. Look at the actual circumstances rather than on mathematical models with no bearing on reality.

> Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets.

Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity.

Over time the high prices incentivizes bringing more power generation and transport online, which is exactly what we are seeing - new/reopened nuclear, coal, and nat gas plants are all planned or coming online across Europe and imports have spiked from places like the US. No one likes high prices but it does incentivize building more capacity that might lose money when prices are low, but make up for that when prices are high. This process doesn't happen over night but sanctions + war (roughly) did. Europe was lulled into complacency by consistent and cheap Russian gas for years.

Also, don't overlook those transport costs. Networks across all energy types are severely constrained and underinvested in. Doesn't matter how cheap you can produce energy if you can't get it to your customers cheaply.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#295

Post by paganel »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #28
capableweb wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why nobody is doing anything about it > I've read somewhere Before wondering why someone, somewhere is not doing something, confirm that the thing is actually happening in the first place.

I have no clue about Czechia but that’s basically happening in Austria. Austria mainly produces energy from renewables which did not go up in price buy since the price on the exchanges is determined by the most expensive source we still pay exorbitant prices. Producers are making all the money right now.

It has been happening here in Romania for more than a decade now, our previous president even called them out as “the smart guys from the power industry” (where “smart” was used in a derogatory way), of course that nothing came out of it all.

There were also a couple of curious deaths happening in the industry (the head of our State-owned hydro company, who died in his late 30s, the local boss of a power utility, who just threw himself from his balcony), but nothing came out of that, either.

Most probably part of the huge proceeds end up in the accounts connected to our intelligence agencies (the heirs of the former Securitate, which have split into several agencies after 1990).

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#296

Post by tsm »

RivieraKid wrote: post #275
unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All energy problem reduce to problems of energy transportation. We have a huge fusion reactor in the sky. The challenge is capture and transit. The problem is not incidental; it's fundamental.

> The problem is not incidental; it's fundamental. WTF does that mean?

I would've said "it's an inherent problem, not just bad luck this time".

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#297

Post by mytailorisrich »

origin_path wrote: post #290
mytailorisrich wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the country. Certainly this applies to a country like France that produces most of its electricity through nuclear, which they are in the process of fully nationalising. This gives them a lot of leeway to control prices without actually costing them anything.

Of course it costs them! Nationalisation just means the losses of the nuclear industry are born by the taxpayer, which will surface in worse services in other areas.

What I'm saying is that since production costs are stable, as long as they set a price that covers actual costs then this price control does not actually cost them money, only potential profits, so it is sustainable.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#299

Post by teddyh »

bambax wrote: post #220
google234123 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge fusion reactor in the sky that isn't available in the evening or when it's cloudy.

It's always available somewhere , so it is, in fact, a transport problem.

That’s just a different problem we can’t solve, either.

Re: Day ahead electricity prices for EU

#300

Post by mbg721 »

paganel wrote: post #295
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no clue about Czechia but that’s basically happening in Austria. Austria mainly produces energy from renewables which did not go up in price buy since the price on the exchanges is determined by the most expensive source we still pay exorbitant prices. Producers are making all the money right now.

It has been happening here in Romania for more than a decade now, our previous president even called them out as “the smart guys from the power industry” (where “smart” was used in a derogatory way), of course that nothing came out of it all. There were also a couple of curious deaths happening in the industry (the head of our State-owned hydro company, who died in his late 30s, the local boss of a power utility, who…

Is that a recoil from the Eastern-Bloc era worship of intellectuals, or is it completely separate, or something else? Americans are often accused of undervaluing people who pursue intellectual professions and propping up "Joe the Plumber," which is why I ask.
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