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FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

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Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#151

Post by 0x457 »

Keyframe wrote: post #93
Melatonic wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously - more than anything I feel like FreeBSD is a server OS first and foremost. Or more realistically something with lower flexibility that makes it ideal for more niche use cases as a pseudo "lower level" OS. The way I see it the two things you want MOST reliable are storages and network - and all the other features of most operating systems are just unnecessary fluff for those. What I would like to see howeve…

Well PlayStation 4 and 5 are on FreeBSD. Modified of course.

That's really irrelevant for multiple reasons: they don't contribute back, and their graphics libraries are irrelevant to your Wayland and X11.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#152

Post by 0x457 »

Melatonic wrote: post #60
0x457 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * No Suspend/Resume? Linux has solved this for years, I have not come across a laptop in the last 10 years that had trouble with s2r or s2d (but I guess that there might be a few that don't fully support it, I mainly tested Dell laptops) I wouldn't be so sure. My Dell XPS 13 and ThinkPad X1 Carbon both had issues with suspend/resume. Close the lid @ get surprised with a completely dead battery. Ironically, when I u…

Was actually also debating recently between the thinkpad and the dell - ended up based on cost with the XPS 15 - any other general tips or big gotchas running linux on it?

Not really, everything[1] works out of the box on new distros. I had to switch NixOS to Fedora, so I can run daemons required for compliance - at the time of F34 (or was it F35?) release thing worked well.

Sometimes you need to enable legacy/linux ACPI state in BIOS. I think it maps S0ix to S3 or something like that.

There is (was?) an issue with suspend on some intels and I had to tweak the behavior otherwise the laptop would keep going after you close the lid.

I think both are solid laptops for linux.

[1]: Everything I used and tried

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#153

Post by johnklos »

horsawlarway wrote: post #94
johnklos wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BSDs are much cleaner than Linux distros. Also, because they don't change gratuitously, once you learn their quirks, you can move on to other things without needing to worry about re-learning tons about the next update. Linux is a constantly moving target with lots of churn that users of computers really don't want or need.

So I certainly understand some of the frustration around churn, and I get that on hardware selected to run BSD, this probably doesn't matter nearly as much But... This article describes (at least in my opinion) an unusable and unstable machine. Basic HDMI out and Ethernet aren't "optional" on machines I run. Frankly - I'd rather lose wifi/bluetooth than HDMI and Ethernet (not that bluetooth is working here either...)…

Perhaps you're talking about a different kind of "churn". I'm not talking about adding drivers and things to make hardware work better - I'm talking about changing commonly used commands and changing how things work from one version of a distro to the next.

For instance, does "ifconfig" need to be replaced by "ip" in order to support new ethernet chips? Do you need all sorts of new invocations to systemd because a new generation of Intel graphics is supported? No.

It may be a personal opinion that people don't want or need churn, but what I mean is that when people want to use a system to get things done, learning new invocations for old commands is usually a distraction to getting those things done.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#154

Post by ruslan »

na85 wrote: post #149
heywoodlh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand it, anything a user installs with pkg that isn't included with the base system is installed into /usr/local. For me, this is a nice benefit because I can know that anything installed into /usr/local can be removed and won't break the basic system's functionality. This organizational structure I think is also just very sensible imo. Note: I'm mostly a Linux user but I play around with FreeBSD a…

Is randomly deleting stuff from /usr a big part of your use case?

From viewpoint of organizing backups separating system stuff from host specific makes some sense. Also, you can put /usr/local on separate volume, this allows mounting rootfs read-only which can be useful in some cases.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#155

Post by ruslan »

nortonham wrote: post #148
ruslan wrote: post #20

This is nice. Couple of days ago I published 80 pages work describing my experience installing FreeBSD on Lenovo Ideapad 3 Gaming laptop and making it to work. The article is in Russian, but I think it can be easily read through Google Translate, here's the link: https://habr-com.translate.goog/en/post/683702/?_x_tr_sl=ru&... My experience was pretty similar to that of the owner of Framework laptop, except some extra…

I read your article (the English translation). Very nice work. I did have a question, more about the translation, since I don't know any Russian (besides a couple of simple words). What is meant by: "many fryukhovovod and linukhovod"? How does that translate to English?

Ahaha... Poor Google.

"Фрюховод", which Google translated as "fryukhovod", means a guy who raises and pets FreeBSD systems. Like cattleman is a man who raises and breeds cattle. It's gentle form. Same way "линуховод" (linukhovod) is a guy who raises Linux systems. Both are well-known jargon words circulating in sysadmin/programming community. :-)

So, the whole phrase your are referring to, can be translated as: "so, many FreeBSD and Linux adepts advise AMD GPU as an alternative".

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#156

Post by nortonham »

ruslan wrote: post #155
nortonham wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your article (the English translation). Very nice work. I did have a question, more about the translation, since I don't know any Russian (besides a couple of simple words). What is meant by: "many fryukhovovod and linukhovod"? How does that translate to English?

Ahaha... Poor Google. "Фрюховод", which Google translated as "fryukhovod", means a guy who raises and pets FreeBSD systems. Like cattleman is a man who raises and breeds cattle. It's gentle form. Same way "линуховод" (linukhovod) is a guy who raises Linux systems. Both are well-known jargon words circulating in sysadmin/programming community. :-) So, the whole phrase your are referring to, can be translated as: "so,…

haha...I thought it could be something like that. Seeing "linukhovod" made me think it was something linux related. I guess breeding and raising linux/bsd systems is kind of what sysadmins do.

Thanks for the response.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#157

Post by ruslan »

nortonham wrote: post #156
ruslan wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahaha... Poor Google. "Фрюховод", which Google translated as "fryukhovod", means a guy who raises and pets FreeBSD systems. Like cattleman is a man who raises and breeds cattle. It's gentle form. Same way "линуховод" (linukhovod) is a guy who raises Linux systems. Both are well-known jargon words circulating in sysadmin/programming community. :-) So, the whole phrase your are referring to, can be translated as: "so,…

haha...I thought it could be something like that. Seeing "linukhovod" made me think it was something linux related. I guess breeding and raising linux/bsd systems is kind of what sysadmins do. Thanks for the response.

Exactly! :)

Does anybody know any service or a decent way to convert Google Translate pages to some editable format ? I would like to save that translation just in case I could find time to polish and publish English version.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#158

Post by heywoodlh »

na85 wrote: post #149
heywoodlh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand it, anything a user installs with pkg that isn't included with the base system is installed into /usr/local. For me, this is a nice benefit because I can know that anything installed into /usr/local can be removed and won't break the basic system's functionality. This organizational structure I think is also just very sensible imo. Note: I'm mostly a Linux user but I play around with FreeBSD a…

Is randomly deleting stuff from /usr a big part of your use case?

No, but you can quickly tell what is a part of the base system vs not based on where it is located. Your /usr directory typically isn't empty on a new Linux install, whereas /usr/local is totally empty.

A simple example is if you run 'which vim'. If you have installed vim through pkg on FreeBSD it will show up in /usr/local/bin/vim. Whereas if you run 'which vim' on Ubuntu, it will show up in /usr/bin/vim -- but on Ubuntu Desktop (when I last used it) vim is preinstalled. You can't just look at the /usr directory on a Linux machine in most cases and know what was installed when you installed the machine.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#159

Post by heywoodlh »

prmoustache wrote: post #130
heywoodlh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand it, anything a user installs with pkg that isn't included with the base system is installed into /usr/local. For me, this is a nice benefit because I can know that anything installed into /usr/local can be removed and won't break the basic system's functionality. This organizational structure I think is also just very sensible imo. Note: I'm mostly a Linux user but I play around with FreeBSD a…

>As far as I understand it, anything a user installs with pkg that isn't included with the base system is installed into /usr/local. > >For me, this is a nice benefit because I can know that anything installed into /usr/local can be removed and won't break the basic system's functionality. This organizational structure I think is also just very sensible imo. I don't really see how it is relevant. First I don't see wh…

On FreeBSD you can quickly tell what is a part of the base system vs not based on where it is located. Your /usr directory typically isn't empty on a new Linux install, whereas /usr/local is totally empty on FreeBSD when you install it.

A simple example is if you run 'which vim'. If you have installed vim through pkg on FreeBSD it will show up in /usr/local/bin/vim. Whereas if you run 'which vim' on Ubuntu, it will show up in /usr/bin/vim -- but on Ubuntu Desktop (when I last used it) vim is preinstalled. You can't just look at the /usr directory on a Linux machine in most cases and know what was installed when you installed the machine.

I mean, try debloating an Ubuntu Desktop machine that's been used for a while and tell me if by looking at the /usr directory what was included in the install vs what you installed post-install.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#160

Post by nortonham »

dark-star wrote: post #31
filmgirlcw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD wars (that were predicated on a much different licensing challenge) and splintering of the communities has meant there was never a big way for developer or even manufacturer interest to really focus. OpenBSD has a very different philosophy related to drivers th…

From what I heard, at least some companies that use FreeBSD in their products do give back and upstream at least bits of their code (like Sony, NetApp, ...). Probably mostly improvements to existing kernel subsystems, maybe not drivers, if the hardware isn't freely available... but they still participate in development. At the end of the day, it is in their interest as it lessens the maintenance burden of forward-por…

netflix definitely gives back to the freebsd project. They run their appliance that delivers netflix content on FreeBSD-current, the development branch
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