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Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

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Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private enterprises are already running a significant chunk of UK health care at the moment; the Tory government is dismantling the socialized health care in favor of short-term profit. It's not about whether people are willing, it's whether they can afford it or if they have no choice but to go into debt. Anyway, the NHS has also paid private clinics already because their own facilities are at capacity.

The nhs also has a shedload of funding. Let’s not overlook the aging population in the UK please. There are many more factors than simply “the Tories are to blame”

It would get a lot more value from that funding if the Tories (and to be fair, also the last Labour gov a decade and a half ago, though not as much) hadn't been pushing so much of it towards embedding privatisation through the NHS such that profits are pointlessly being taken out at all stages. (Well, obviously not pointless for the shareholders, who happen to often coincidentally be tory party donors.)

A hospital having a 20% bigger budget for their janitorial staff isn't in a better position if it's also been required to move from hiring full time cleaners in-house to contracting an approved cleaning company that has 30% profit margin baked in. An NHS patient isn't helped knowing that 50% more funding goes into paying consultants for the problem they have, if gradually more and more of those consultants are moving to private health companies and having to be rented back to the NHS at a markup that pays both the doctor and the company's shareholders. Etc etc.

Sure, the population demographics are related, but even if we had the exact same population as 20 years ago we'd be in a much worse situation; plus it's the government's job to pay attention to things like demo changes in their population, and to listen to the warnings that have been coming from the medical community for many years, and should have been proactively funding better social care (instead of completely abandoning it to local councils while also lowering their funding) AND making the NHS even better (rather than gradually turning it into an umbrella for private companies who eat up any budget increases).

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#132

This twitter thread is excellent. Here are selected tweets to highlight the crisis from hospital and ambulance waiting times. --- "England & Wales as the only part of Europe that has recorded sustained and rising excess mortality over the last few months with no obvious natural explanation." "Patients who waited 8-12 hours had a 16% higher chance of dying in the subsequent 30 days than average." "This was after adjus…

As somebody else in this thread pointed out the numbers don’t stack up. This thread is subjective at best

could you link to that pointing out? which parts don't stack up? the 12+ hour wait times, the hospital occupancy, the discharge rate, the aging population and the slashed spending are all seem to be hard numbers (dare I say facts?) ... what doesn't add up?

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#133

Sooo... are they trying to destroy HC so they can rebuild it as the monstrosity we have here in the USA?

Yes there are significant and multiple areas where private healthcare companies are being paid to 'provide' services to the NHS in a classic outsourcing process similar to what you would see in IT. Private company charge a lot more, pay their staff a bit more to attract workers from the NHS, extend their contracts to provide more services where there are NHS staff shortages. Taxpayer money turns into company profits.…

It's a bit complicated. Private providers can have different staff mixes, so you might have more healthcare assistants and fewer nurses. You might have more unregistered nurses and fewer registered nurses. You might find more staff are on zero-hour contracts, or things like "hotel services" (food, cleaning) are contracted out to companies that are low pay poor condition companies.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#134

What if the government allowed private enterprise to open emergency clinics in times of great need? There are probably a lot of people who would be willing to pay out of pocket for medical care, especially in an emergency, if it meant getting seen sooner.

Tell me, if you are having a heart attack or have had a stroke, how likely are you to have the mental fortitude required to realize that not only is there a for-profit emergency service, but you can pay to get seen now? Probably not very likely. If your emergency is urgent but not actually life threatening, then you might. You might - might - think of it if you have gall bladder or appendix types of pain, if you aren…

I understand you pretty well. But see, the majority of people in this forum are from the USA so most of the scenarios that you draw like "freak cases" are normal day to day things that happen in the USA where most healthcare is for-profit.

For someone that is used to social/universal healthcare (like UK, Norway, France, Germany) the prospect of having to deal with stupid for-profit situations during an emergency are laughable. But for someone living in that hell, it is something normal. Not for anything you read countless of anecdotes of people deciding to stay at home and use some superglue or rolled towels when they have an accident and bleed.

I've had the opportunity of experience the two systems (UK' NHS, Germany´s Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung, Mexico's IMSS for public, and Mexico's private system) and really makes me angry that society is moving toward for-profit privatized systems instead of looking to fix the issues in universal/public systems. (It's like if when we saw that the police or the firefighters were not working, we decided to make law enforcement private... throwing the baby out with the bathwater)

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#135
post #99

I hadn't (here in the USA) heard anything about "collapse of emergency healthcare in England" -- can anyone provide some links for some context? What is actually going on, and (to the extent people know/educated guess) why? Have wait times been gradually increasing, or has there been a sudden increase? ("collapse" sounds sudden?) Etc etc.

The Conservative Party have been in power for 12 years. When they gained power they pursued a policy of "austerity" to reduce the size of the govt and local govt, reduce the funding of nationally funded things, and to replace such govt owned things with "public private partnerships". This can be seen everywhere from social care (private care homes), schools (academy schools), transport (where area contracts are bid f…

NIH budget has increased over 40% since 2015. https://officeofbudget.od.nih.gov/pdfs/FY22/spending-hist/Me...

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#136
post #91

Quoted post unavailable.

Not much groupthink needed to downvote somebody who feels a single short sentence, with no citations or.. anything really, yet one that goes against current mainstream medical and scientific opinions, is worth writing.

If you actually wanted to try to convince anyone that you might be even somewhere in the vicinity of having a point, you've given up before even trying and opted for pre-complaining about downvotes (something which, on HN, almost guarantees you downvotes even if you're saying something people agree with, btw) rather than suggesting a single piece of data that would lead to any reasonable person thinking "hmm, yeah maybe worth investigating further this theory that vaccines are the cause of UK's current high excess mortality rates".

But I suspect you didn't have much choice, if there actually were a compelling argument to make in support of your claim then, well, you'd be making it.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They subtract COVID deaths from excess deaths to get the baseline, forgetting that COVID deaths were counted somewhat liberally, and some percentage of non-COVID deaths were counted as COVID deaths if someone was infected close to their time of death. If COVID deaths were counted liberaly and even after subtracting those inflated numbers you still have excess deaths, then that only further underlines their point th…

No, they say that current non-COVID excess deaths are higher than non-COVID excess deaths were during COVID . They underestimate non-COVID excess deaths during COVID because of the subtraction, which makes current excess deaths higher than average. In reality, they underestimated the average that they compare to. Hope it's clear now.

I see what you mean, yes it does make it difficult to prove a trend between periods with high rates of COVID infection and low rates of COVID infection.

But proving such a trend is problematic regardless of what the criteria for a COVID excess death is. Simply because during a period of high COVID infection a lot of people are dying from COVID before they have the chance to die from other causes.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#138

What if the government allowed private enterprise to open emergency clinics in times of great need? There are probably a lot of people who would be willing to pay out of pocket for medical care, especially in an emergency, if it meant getting seen sooner.

Hell no. NHS as a public service is currently fighting for its life. Opening up to private enterprise would accomplish the goal of killing and/or privatising it even quicker.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy that explanation. Democracy turned out to be easily manipulatable with large sums of money and media control. At this point, an average person can’t have much of an affect on how government is acting. Very few people can take a day off to protest, and even if they do, protests tend to be meaningless too. I’m not saying that average person is blameless but most of the fault lies with the ruling classes.

> At this point, an average person can’t have much of an affect on how government is acting. Very few people can take a day off to protest, and even if they do, protests tend to be meaningless too. The older I get, the more I believe the only real voting someone can do is with their wallet.

And even that is mostly bullshit, if you don't happen to be flush with money so you can actually afford to throw the weight of your wallet's contents around.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they say that current non-COVID excess deaths are higher than non-COVID excess deaths were during COVID . They underestimate non-COVID excess deaths during COVID because of the subtraction, which makes current excess deaths higher than average. In reality, they underestimated the average that they compare to. Hope it's clear now.

I see what you mean, yes it does make it difficult to prove a trend between periods with high rates of COVID infection and low rates of COVID infection. But proving such a trend is problematic regardless of what the criteria for a COVID excess death is. Simply because during a period of high COVID infection a lot of people are dying from COVID before they have the chance to die from other causes.

Yes, that's another confounding factor.
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