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Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

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Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#61

That is what people voted for...

I don’t buy that explanation. Democracy turned out to be easily manipulatable with large sums of money and media control. At this point, an average person can’t have much of an affect on how government is acting. Very few people can take a day off to protest, and even if they do, protests tend to be meaningless too. I’m not saying that average person is blameless but most of the fault lies with the ruling classes.

> Democracy turned out to be easily manipulatable with large sums of money and media control.

Is it, though? Establishment interests spend huge sums of money and often lose. The Republican party was an elite country club party, but when evangelicals emerged as a political force, the party had to jump on that wave, no matter how distasteful the old party elites found it. Then Trump came along, giving blatantly shallow lip service to religion, and now the party is beholden to him. That wasn't in anybody's plan except Trump's, and his personal wealth was paltry next to the Republican Party's resources.

But maybe the elites who do the manipulation are happy to pander on a few issues if they get what they want on the issues that are really important to them. Let's think about that. If there was one core tenet of the GHWB-era Republican Party that its elites would have wanted to protect above all else, what would it be? If there was one core tenet that united all American economic elites, one thing above all others that they would want to instill in voters' heads, wouldn't it be economical liberalism? More specifically, free trade? Well, they've failed at that. NAFTA was a banner achievement for the Republicans. Now Trump calls NAFTA a Clinton disaster and promotes trade war with China, and he runs the Republican Party, because it does matter what the voters want, and you can't outright buy their belief in anything.

We blame voters for being bought and manipulated when someone speaks to them in a way they find compelling but "shouldn't" according to our worldview. We assume that the superiority of our worldview gives us a natural advantage, and we look for special reasons why our views don't prevail. "What's the matter with Kansas?" in other words. What's the matter is that Trump's voters really do care more about Trump licking their wounded egos more than they care about anything else.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#62
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the US healthcare system is already collapsing" What do you mean by this, specifically? People not having insurance? Increasing deaths inside the hospital? Large numbers of people turned away from emergency rooms? I'm questioning this because with the exception of malpractice, the U.S. healthcare system seems to be working quite well, despite the large numbers of uninsured and those who cannot pay. I just don't buy…

People just love to talk about how horrible the US healthcare system is but my disabled daughter has never paid a dime for care in her life (in Kansas, of all places!) via Medicaid. Even her birth was free due to retroactive Medicaid. Her 9 months in the NICU was billed at over $2 million. Thanks taxpayers. I was having chest pains last week and got triaged within minutes at the ER. I’m pretty sure I “owe” them $500…

>>> I guess they just ate the cost?

We did, through our taxes and insurance premiums and opportunity costs. We paid for average care plus the greatest medical rentier system in the galaxy.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#63
post #3

Meanwhile the prime minister is on perma vacation and the replacement candidates are focused on banning on shore renewables and squabbling among each other

The replacement candidates are also both sure that the main issues facing the UK public are "woke" politics and trans people[0], and seem entirely unphased about the pending crisis around energy bills and the price of food. And the opposition seem pretty uninterested in taking advantage of this massive open goal. Incredible.

[0] no, not in a nice "let's all remember to treat LGBTQ+ compassionately and with respect" way

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#64

But what has caused the collapse of emergency healthcare in the UK? A lack of supply or an increase in demand?

Increase in demand - much of which is attributed (by the NHS itself) for people having poor life-styles (meaning tending to obesity [0] and not maintaining physical and mental fitness), and the tendency for people to be kept alive longer existing with chronic conditions that a few decades ago would have naturally expired (dead!).

There's been an endemic problem for the last 30+ years where-by a large proportion of the population has a sense of entitlement to NHS care without at the same time bearing responsibility to keep themselves reasonably fit and healthy.

@ [0]: "Nearly two-thirds of adults in England are overweight or obese. In 2016/17, 617,000 admissions to NHS hospitals recorded obesity as a primary or secondary diagnosis"

[0] https://www.longtermplan.nhs.uk/online-version/chapter-2-mor...

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#65
post #13

Canada is having the same issue with 20hr waits in the emergency room and others being rejected outright https://globalnews.ca/news/9066662/emergency-rooms-canada-bi... I’ve heard a big part is all the doctors have been going on vacation all at once now that COVID is largely over, after not taking them for two years. They don’t have enough staff to cover even partial shortages. That plus the elephant in the room of p…

There's a public sector salary cap in many parts of Canada, despite roaring inflation.

And a general vibe from the public and the government that generally despises public sector unions and would almost certainly backlash against nurses and teachers should they sensibly decide to go on strike.

For two years they busted their asses for the public in tough straits and now COVID numbers in the hospital system are still crazy but the public is pretending they aren't, and basically expecting the health care system to "deal with it."

A prov government here in Ontario that screwed the public health care system and nurses in particular all through the COVID crisis, and has every intent on doing more of that ... was just re-elected with a landslide majority.

If you put foxes in charge the hen house, it's not a surprise when the nurses^H^H^H^H^Hhens start to disappear.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#66

What if the government allowed private enterprise to open emergency clinics in times of great need? There are probably a lot of people who would be willing to pay out of pocket for medical care, especially in an emergency, if it meant getting seen sooner.

Tell me, if you are having a heart attack or have had a stroke, how likely are you to have the mental fortitude required to realize that not only is there a for-profit emergency service, but you can pay to get seen now?

Probably not very likely. If your emergency is urgent but not actually life threatening, then you might. You might - might - think of it if you have gall bladder or appendix types of pain, if you aren't in too much pain to think about it.

And how, exactly, would this go into place? Would you call the emergency line, who proceeds to upsell you on a premium emergency room that will see you right now if only you pay money upfront? Does this also mean that poor people's lives are worth less since they cannot pay up? How about teenagers, who might be calling the emergency line yet don't actually have money to pay?

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#67
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This Twitter chap" is a journalist at the Financial Times and is a senior fellow at the London School of Economics. He's not just some rando bashing government...

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority I would trust a rando more than a journalist these days

> Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Authority

It's putting the source in the proper context.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#68
I hadn't (here in the USA) heard anything about "collapse of emergency healthcare in England" -- can anyone provide some links for some context? What is actually going on, and (to the extent people know/educated guess) why? Have wait times been gradually increasing, or has there been a sudden increase? ("collapse" sounds sudden?) Etc etc.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#69

But what has caused the collapse of emergency healthcare in the UK? A lack of supply or an increase in demand?

NHS has been underfunded for years. These issues are, in a way, not new. But it just kept getting worse and worse, COVID added burnout and a huge backlog of treatments and missed diagnoses.

It probably doesn't help that a lot of the medical staff were from the EU and just before COVID were PTFO.

I'm still waiting for those hospitals to be built by all the money saved by Brexit.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#70
post #64

But what has caused the collapse of emergency healthcare in the UK? A lack of supply or an increase in demand?

Increase in demand - much of which is attributed (by the NHS itself) for people having poor life-styles (meaning tending to obesity [0] and not maintaining physical and mental fitness), and the tendency for people to be kept alive longer existing with chronic conditions that a few decades ago would have naturally expired (dead!). There's been an endemic problem for the last 30+ years where-by a large proportion of th…

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