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Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

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Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me, if you are having a heart attack or have had a stroke, how likely are you to have the mental fortitude required to realize that not only is there a for-profit emergency service, but you can pay to get seen now? Probably not very likely. If your emergency is urgent but not actually life threatening, then you might. You might - might - think of it if you have gall bladder or appendix types of pain, if you aren…

in the states, my experience has been that neighbors will frequently discuss the location of new urgent care clinics or share them in group chats. "hey do you guys know of any good urgent care places? I have a swollen arm from a bee sting" was a recent msg thread that popped up on my phone. Usually the patient is insured but you can (should) also ask for a cash price if needed.

That feels positively dystopian if you're dealing with a time sensitive, life threatening, emergency.

"Hey y'all, anyone know a good place for heart stuff? My husband can't feel his left arm and keeps passing out! Preferably cheap!"

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nhs also has a shedload of funding. Let’s not overlook the aging population in the UK please. There are many more factors than simply “the Tories are to blame”

This is the actual issue, spending isn't keeping up with the demand. I'd agree that "the Tories are to blame" doesn't capture it, but I don't think they're equipped to deal with the problem. Real terms spending per age adjusted capita appears to have been on a downwards trend [0] since they took power. I think this has gone up since the pandemic, but I think it's likely too little too late and will probably be a shor…

Interesting - nice to have a sensible debate on it. I think your idea is worth pursuing even if it's not perfect.

Young people should not be subsidising old people who no longer work - especially those same young people who don't own house or have savings or a pension.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#113

But what has caused the collapse of emergency healthcare in the UK? A lack of supply or an increase in demand?

It's complicated.

In England social care (care homes) are funded by local authorities, not the NHS, and are overwhelmingly provided by private providers. We've had decades of under-funding of local authorities, and the Conservative government has made it very difficult for LAs to raise funds via taxation.

So, during a time where we have an ageing population we do not have nearly enough beds for these people to be cared for.

When people go into hospital, either as a planned (elective) admission or as an emergency, and they get treatment, and they're ready to leave hospital they have to have somewhere to go to. Lots of people will go back to their own home, but some people will be unable to do this because it's not safe to do so. These people need a care or nursing home. Because there aren't any available beds, and because there aren't any available suitable home care packages, these people stay in hospital on the wards.

Those beds are now not available to be used.

So, now you have a problem of flow of patients through hospitals. You can't discharge patients from the ward, which means that ward can't now accept patients from elsewhere (surgery, ED) in the hospital. This means that elective care reduces, and emergency care slows down. People wait in Ed for very long times. And because ED is full people can't get in to ED, so ambos queue outside ED for hours. This means many ambos are queued outside ED waiting to transfer a patient, and not available to travel to people. So now people in life-threatening emergency or with severe injury are waiting far too long for an ambo.

Fixing care homes and nursing homes would do a lot to fix patient flow, but it's not going to happen because we have a government that hates the NHS and hates LAs and hates taxation.

On top of all of this we have an incoherent approach to staffing. The English NHS is full of staff who've come to England to work. We need these people - they improve the quality of care and they increase the amount of care we can deliver. We should be making it easier for people to come here, but we don't, we put up a load of weird bureaucratic blocks. (Because we have a government that hates immigration.)

We need to train very many more staff (there is something like 100,000 staff shortage, at least 10,000 doctors and 50,000 nurses) but we've made it more expensive to train to become a nurse, or a doctor; we've cut pay for all staff (for junior doctors to achieve pay restoration they'd need something like a 25%-30% pay increase).

We need to retain the staff we already have, but there are a range of things that make working for an English NHS trust pretty terrible. It's not just pay, but poor pay doesn't help. There's a weird thing around pensions that means many doctors can either retire early or face a massive increase in their taxes. Lots of staff have trouble getting paid on time when they start work at a new organisation. People have to pay for car parking, and they're fined if they overstay even if that overstay was caused by saving the life of a very ill patient. (These can be over-turned but why should it happen at all?). Rest areas are generally awful and expensive. Hot food is generally not available 24 hours a day. Rotas are chaotic. Doctors can apply for leave a year in advance and then have that denied with very short notice. Some NHS trusts have toxic work cultures and problems with racism, sexism, and bullying. And these are just the things I can remember, the real list is very much longer.

About demand: there has been an increase in demand for healthcare. GPs are seeing more people than they were before pandemic, but there's a perception that it's quite hard to see a GP. (I don't have much trouble, but I have cancer and my GP is pretty good, but I recognise other people have difficulty with weird access restrictions). This trickles through to ED - a few people turn up to ED needlessly. Before pandemic we had clear evidence that it wasn't really enough to make much difference to the overall ED demand. The picture is less clear during pandemic - certainly people going to GP not ED if they need GP is a good thing because they get better care, but it's hard to know if it's making the ED problem much worse.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#114
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA have tried, it doesn't work. People still wait hours and hours in the ER. They just have to pay thousands for the privilege.

doesn't work? there are urgent care places everywhere

Have you tried one? Last time my wife went in there for a broken back, she was told to sit in a chair at 10PM and to wait until 8AM for the doctor to come in.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#115
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This does suggest the general problem is really that we don't know where to put all these incapable poor health old people. This has been the case for years: there are plenty of people who should not be discharged home to fend entirely on their own, but there's no social care in place to look after them, so they aren't discharged. This is also technically the responsibility of the local council rather than central…

But my point is that this seems to have been a gradually growing problem for some time, but the recent spike from covid is likely a temporary bump greatly exacerbating it. It'll drop down again. Then, gradually, climb back up to where it is now. If it reverts to the mean quickly, it still won't take that long to get to where it transiently is now based on a straight line trend so maybe it's just a point of pedantry.…

When you have a system with no spare capacity a sudden spike in demand causes queue lengths to grow but they never get shorter again.

That's the theory. In reality, the rising death rate will cause a drop in demand.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#116
This isn't a collapse of emergency healthcare, it's a very predicted collapse of community social care: hospitals can't discharge if they need a care home place that doesn't exist.

Without inpatient bed availability, ERs and AMUs can't admit to specialties and everything gums up at the front door.

Let's be clear: we do need many more doctors and nurses, but the existing ones can't do their jobs because their wards have turned into medically-fit nursing homes. They spend half their days trying to send people (who don't have care requirements) home faster than they'd like.

Why? Because central government withdrew funding. Social care is now on the council to fund and many councils have squashed social care, along with libraries and early years provisions. The trap of outsourcing caught many councils out.

Turns out the whole endeavour was yet more myopic, Tory penny-pinching.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#117

I hadn't (here in the USA) heard anything about "collapse of emergency healthcare in England" -- can anyone provide some links for some context? What is actually going on, and (to the extent people know/educated guess) why? Have wait times been gradually increasing, or has there been a sudden increase? ("collapse" sounds sudden?) Etc etc.

For years people have been raising the warning about the pressures on healthcare system, and for years the conservative party have asked the NHS to do more with less.

What does collapse look like?

Well, in the early days, it looks very gentle. The four hour wait for ED treatment goes up a bit. Healthcare people say "Look! This is concerning!" and politicians say "eh, it's just winter pressure, we know things are rough in winter."

Or you say "Look at the waiting list for community eating disorder treatment, this is concerning!" and politicians say "we're taking people out of mental health hospitals and giving them treatment in the community, so there's a transition period" (they cut beds for ed treatment, but didn't also fund community ed treatment, so wait lists have gone up a lot).

It's like Buckaroo or kerplunk or jenga. You can load the donkey, pull the straws, pull the blocks, and stuff still sort of works (less safe, less effective, more harmful) but then something happens and blam you've tipped over into catastrophe.

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#118
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The replacement candidates are also both sure that the main issues facing the UK public are "woke" politics and trans people[0], and seem entirely unphased about the pending crisis around energy bills and the price of food. And the opposition seem pretty uninterested in taking advantage of this massive open goal. Incredible. [0] no, not in a nice "let's all remember to treat LGBTQ+ compassionately and with respect" w…

> And the opposition seem pretty uninterested in taking advantage of this massive open goal. Never interrupt your opponent while they are making a mistake. Right now, Labour and the Lib Dems don't have a particularly credible method to cause an election. Given that, their best _political_ option is probably to allow the Tories to run themselves into the ground.

I'll believe that they have a response to these things when I see it. While I've seen polling putting Labour ahead of the Tories but no big movement on the problems I've mentioned (in addition to some worrying anti-worker sentiment @ party level relating to the rail strikes)

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#119
post #29
post #2

Someone should ask the guy to publish on a blog and link his twitter to it.

Blogs don’t make sense for the most prolific creators. Here’s something I saw recently > I gave up blogging after decades because the ROI simply wasn’t there any more. Why spend hours on a post that will get hundreds of views when a tweet composed in minutes gets tens of thousands to millions? https://twitter.com/carnage4life/status/1559852146601799683 And it’s the same with Scott Hanselman, who’s quoted in that twee…

If you are serious about communicating then you MUST blog in addition to tweet. Twitter is for soundbites, not lengthy articles. You can't expect people to read tweet after tweet when they would rather read a long continuous article.

The dude probably has the software that breaks down lengthy articles and tweets them in reverse order but that shouldn't be abused.

And what happens when you fall foul of twitter's rules and get banned?

Re: Collapse of emergency healthcare in England may be costing 500 lives every week

#120
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So socialised medicine works?

If by "socialized medicine" you mean public option health insurance, then yes it does work. I'm willing to bet, though, that the poster you're replying to only received care from privately run hospitals/clinics, so calling it socialized medicine seems misleading.

> public option health insurance

> calling it socialized medicine seems misleading.

Outside of the UK, that is how health care in developed countries is organized. It's either that or some version of Obamacare (regulated, private, with price caps and subsidies) or a combination.

American conservatives call them all, without exception, "socialized medicine".

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