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Teaching Good Sex

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Re: Teaching Good Sex

#101
post #96
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much agreed. But I also think we're looking at the problem in a somewhat more isolated context than would be required to effect true improvement. By which I mean, if we are to achieve a safe, controlled environment to have open and honest communication about sex that includes some mature guidance, then a more systemic change in English speaking society as a whole is required. So rather than changes being effecte…

Do you have specific examples?

Here's a couple of articles on the Netherlands and Sweden:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm

The original link of this thread, which talks about the sex ed classes of a Mr Al Vernacchio, does strike me as a pretty detailed example of the kind of model that some European countries are practicing.

And I'll finish with another example from my own experience that illustrates the wider difference in attitude that I alluded to: I visited Germany about 6 or so years ago. One day we went to an area near Potsdam, I think it was Wannsee. This area has a lot of beautiful old architecture and park land and people can swim in some of these parks because they back onto a lake but this area is still very much a developed part of the Berlin/Potsdam area.

We went there with a small group of people, got lake-side and people started taking their clothes off to swim naked in the lake. This was a group of male and female people, almost none of which were in any kind of intimate relationship with each other. And in the middle of the day, with streets nearby and many people walking around the park and surrounding area. It wasn't specifically designated as a nude swimming area, it was just a swimming area and some people swam nude, some didn't and neither caused any issues for anyone.

This is one example that I noticed while in Europe but there were more of these situations where nudity or sex were treated in just a very mature and reasonable way. Not as something that should be shunned and feared out of some kind of puritan obsession with the subject; which in its self I think is fuelled by deeply unsatisfied sexual desires.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#102
post #26

It seems unwise to promote casual sex without fully understanding the consequences. And I don't speak of the overblown disease fears, but the far more serious effects of emotional desensitization. Sex elicits a chemical response much like cocaine or heroin, and is also prone to the build up of tolerance. Thus, casual sex with multiple partners leads to a severely diminished capacity for pair bonding and emotional ful…

Research tends to show that "celibacy until marriage and fidelity thereafter" tends to be more of a lie that people all agree to believe rather than the truth. Pre-marital shenanigans and extra-marital affairs are extremely common, the latter especially among higher-status men, who in many other cultures are openly polygamous. There are a number of things that are cultural universals. Every culture has music, or ritu…

Food for thought:

http://tinyurl.com/7erlzzn

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#103
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have specific examples?

Here's a couple of articles on the Netherlands and Sweden: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm The original link of this thread, which talks about the sex ed classes of a Mr Al Vernacchio, does strike me as a pretty detailed example of the kind of model that some European countries are practicing. And I'll finish with another example from my own exp…

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Re: Teaching Good Sex

#104
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure it doesn't apply to you but that sounds like it was written by someone who never really had sex all that often. "The Joy of Sex" became so popular (in an era in which sex was widely seen as a leisure pursuit and before the scares over HIV) because many people actually did need to be told what to do. It concentrated on the emotional as well as the physical aspects. Poor analogy time: owning a car does not mak…

GP's point is that the best advice on how to please someone comes from that person, no book can give complete insight into the way their body works. To torture your analogy some more, imagine a car capable of explaining to you how to drive/maintain it perfectly. Like a less whiny KITT. Would it not make sense to ask the car rather than to pore over generic car manuals?

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Re: Teaching Good Sex

#105
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a couple of articles on the Netherlands and Sweden: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408927_5 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm The original link of this thread, which talks about the sex ed classes of a Mr Al Vernacchio, does strike me as a pretty detailed example of the kind of model that some European countries are practicing. And I'll finish with another example from my own exp…

[deleted]

My partner of nearly 10 years is German and while I do feel that I've had a fairly long history of exposure to their culture through her, nor can I say that I am able to speak authoritatively on all Germans or all stratas of their culture. Certainly Germany and wider Europe are not made up of people who have an entirely homogenous attitude towards sexuality. And as you would of course know, it's not like you can just walk naked through any street in Berlin without causing a fuss. But having lived in Germany, I'm sure you understand the subtle difference in the European attitude that I'm trying to illustrate.

I think you're putting the horse before the cart. I'm pretty sceptical that anyone is 'fundamentally wired' any differently from anyone else. We're all products of our society and even if a certain set of social conventions are deeply baked into the history of a particular culture, that shouldn't mean that said social conventions should be mistaken for some form of innate attribute or that they cannot be re-examined if they are found to be detrimental. I'm not implying that this is necessarily what you meant, I'm just pointing out that its a slippery slope from 'fundamentally wired for X' to 'can't change X'.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#106
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in my early twenties. It's not a good feeling to have. Don't let it bother you. Nothing good ever comes out of it. It automatically made me dislike people who've had sex; and until a couple of years, every single friend I had (in college) was a virgin. (I just wouldn't get close to a non-virgin, because of the feeling of hatred his/her's non-virginity brought.) In any case, I would say try to get rid of the feeli…

i think my first problem is that i live in a relatively large city but just can't meet people. the small group of friends i have are almost all in tech and they don't introduce me to girls. i just don't seem to meet other people.

Which city do you live in? (if it's not personal)

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#107
The article is pushing, pushing HARD, on a particular point of view: "Sex is normal and okay and should be enjoyed well before marriage and age 18".

Well, in the US in this year 2011, heavily this point of view is in actual fact DANGEROUS.

Before explaining some of the danger, notice, the article is EXTREME: To see how extreme, just look at the picture where the girl is somewhere between age 9-12, my guess would be 10 or 11. Below I will illustrate a little of why 9-12 is, here in the US in 2011, so extreme.

We need a fact of life, mostly about politics and religion and not just about sex: In the US, there is an extremely strongly held and very restrictive norm and a significant fraction of the population that believes very strongly in this norm and wants very much to have this norm ENFORCED on others and to bring serious, severe, even lifetime, public retribution to anyone who violates that norm. The norm is close to the traditional teachings of some religions, especially Roman Catholics, Baptists, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims, that sex should be ONLY within marriage. The idea that sex should be 'fun' between two people, like, say, playing tennis, is frowned on. That's the norm. To enforce the norm, there can be various cases of 'religious police'.

Now on to the danger: Anyone in the US who is publicly accused of violating the norm can be in very deep trouble in their job or marriage or legally.

E.g., without a doubt, one of the greatest dangers to the career of a politician is an accusation that they violated the norm. That is, there is a long list of once powerful politicians who, just because of accusations that they 'fooled around', were thrown out of office or had their political careers seriously hurt. Forgot Governor Spitzer? What about Chairman Wilbur Mills? The Little Wiener Representative Weiner? The news media is talking more about Herman Cain's (A) 999 plan or (B) he said-she said?

Outside of politics, there is a great danger of a person being accused of being a 'sexual predator' and, thus, having to 'register' for the rest of their life.

Violations of the norm can be taken more seriously than robbery or even murder. I.e., some people who follow the norm are REALLY 'uptight' about sex.

There are so many people who believe strongly in the norm, especially in Texas and the Bible Belt, that the Republicans toss out little hints about abstinence-only sex education, leaving sex education to the parents and holding down any role in sex education in the schools, repealing Roe v. Wade, etc. and get some significant election advantage.

Any suggestion or hint of improper behavior about sex at work can result in law suits, being fired, etc.

One of the crimes taken most seriously is rape, but, if sex were just like a game of tennis, then why lock people up for years because of rape? Because according to the norm, sex is very much NOT just like a game of tennis.

If the boy is in college and the girl in high school, then have to do some careful calculations about their birth dates and state laws to decide if the boy should be locked up.

Heck, the people with the norms don't even like standard sex within marriage: E.g., why in the US has there been a long tradition of June brides? Because it was long standard that a girl would get married in her first June after high school graduation. Then there was a good chance that she would be a "teen mother", married but still in her teens. But the people with the norms keep screaming about the evils of "teen pregnancy". Gee, Princess Di was a "teen mom". The norms are so UPTIGHT about sex they don't even want a married woman of 18 or 19 to be a mommy.

Heck, some of the laws enforced as desired by former US Attorney General John Ashcroft would have most of the US male population in jail -- literally. E.g., just take a picture at the beach where the picture has a girl under 18 and let a digital version of the picture get distributed at all. JAIL. According to Ashcroft, even a cartoon image would do. We're talking UPTIGHT. By the way, parents: No baby pictures!

For the case of the picture with the article, the public repercussions, especially for the boy, from any suggestion that that couple, with the girl likely well under age 13, even engaged in just some 'touching' could be horrendous. E.g., if the boy's father were a politician, then the news media could go wild for weeks.

The news media knows very well about the norms and how uptight many people in the US are and takes huge advantage to 'sell newspapers' or, now, get eyeballs for ads.

Sex outside of marriage, any touching related to sex, just talking about sex can have consequences that can ruin lives. At work, a woman can get a man fired, and his career ruined, just by complaining "He looked at me in a way that made me feel uncomfortable.".

Net, in our society, sex, nearly anything about sex, outside of marriage is DANGEROUS -- politically, legally, financially, etc.

The article is ignoring the strong norms and pushing a very 'liberal' view of sex maybe more like in, say, Sweden. At one time in the US, the age of consent was 10 -- NOT NOW. Maybe the US should return to the age of consent 10 or have something like Sweden (or maybe not), but currently that is very much NOT how the US is.

As dangerous as sex has been in the US, now with DNA testing it's much more dangerous. E.g., consider the DNA testing of the stain on the little black dress of that White House Intern during the Clinton Administration. Then consider how that stain was the 'seed' of a full impeachment process with all of the US Federal Government seriously distracted for months. Clinton was seriously throttled in what he could do as the leader of the US. We're talking SERIOUS and DANGEROUS.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#108
post #97
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such feelings are natural. It used to bother me a lot too that others were getting laid, and I wasn't. Then, after some trial-and-error, I was able to "crack" the womens' code, in the sense that I was able to understand where they were coming from, and be very comfortable around them. That led to the pendulum swinging (pardon the pun) to the other extreme: I was getting more tail than any of the jocks I knew. It help…

It took me a long time to understand too.

I know it sounds bad, but it is the truth: as very rational people, we find it a bit hard to understand women. And I say this as a person who has many more close women friends than guy friends!

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#109
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research tends to show that "celibacy until marriage and fidelity thereafter" tends to be more of a lie that people all agree to believe rather than the truth. Pre-marital shenanigans and extra-marital affairs are extremely common, the latter especially among higher-status men, who in many other cultures are openly polygamous. There are a number of things that are cultural universals. Every culture has music, or ritu…

Food for thought: http://tinyurl.com/7erlzzn

I dispute the idea that marriage stability in and of itself is a metric we should seek to maximize. Some marriages should end in divorce.

All that you're really doing is showing that one form of social conservatism is correlated to another form of social conservatism. That doesn't actually illustrate anything.

Also, it's not even a correlation between orthogonal variables. Presumably, if you're already in a stable marriage for a longer period of time, there was less time for you to have premarital sex in the first place.

Re: Teaching Good Sex

#110
post #59
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some soap: Everything you've seen or read about sex is false. It is an (growing) experience between the ones who have sex which can not be learned from a book or video.

I'm sure it doesn't apply to you but that sounds like it was written by someone who never really had sex all that often. "The Joy of Sex" became so popular (in an era in which sex was widely seen as a leisure pursuit and before the scares over HIV) because many people actually did need to be told what to do. It concentrated on the emotional as well as the physical aspects. Poor analogy time: owning a car does not mak…

"...that sounds like..." Also forget what you learned about that sound ;)
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