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You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

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Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#251

Post by uwagar »

basscomm wrote: post #191
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

> Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginners who haven't accomplished much yet. Lots of beginners in every field think that they're God's gift to whatever it is that they've just started. They're going to change the world, etc. That comes with the territory of being a beginner. Usually they mel…

>But the arts are somehow different. There's this expectation that artists should produce works for the benefit of society

its kinda good that it is expected that way. art is placed at the level of love. u dont want love to be offered on the market. somehow that feels wrong even when its legal (eg., prostitution) and serving some purpose. artists need a society that appreciates that creativity is a gift and its source is mysterious. the society would then allocate a certain % of income to support the arts. but we now have a society that is each man for himself in a dog-eat-dog world.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#252

Post by watwut »

nosianu wrote: post #231
watwut wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All examples in the original comment are people at the top of the profession. Literally none of them is average music teacher. And the question was "who paid for the great music of the period". Einstein was not richer then other physicians. His fame could have help him when emigrating and at keeping employment, but afaik it was not rewarded by super unusual riches.

> All examples in the original comment are people at the top of the profession. And how does that invalidate the argument? "Others made the same mistake!" - Yes, and? > Einstein was not richer then other physicians. How is this relevant to the argument? (Rhetorical question - it is not) > And the question was "who paid for the great music of the period". OP wrote "there were a heck of a lot of great composers in that…

Others did not made mistake. Others asked different question then the one you answered. Others asked about specifically about musicians such as Liszt, Beethoven, Mozart, Bartok, Handel, Debussy, Bach - the top of the top. You answered about salary of guitar teacher, someone whose work you do not play, because it never even got recorded.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#253

Post by analog31 »

tomcam wrote: post #173
nbzso wrote: post #141

A little life story: I had commercial success in art at the humble age of 23. Not only were my paintings respected and collected by accomplished and wealthy individuals, they formed commissions for years to come. My success was the result of an obsession with craftsmanship and clever word-of-mouth marketing. Suddenly, one day after insisting on meeting the deadline of the expensive commission, I had a headache and my…

That’s a beautiful story. It’s so good that you found peace. I have a child who is enormously gifted and could probably follow precisely the same career path you described. I fear/hope that child will make the same decisions you did.

Every parent hopes their kid will pursue their dreams as a hobby while learning to code. Speaking as a parent of two such kids, good luck with that. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#254

Post by 7steps2much »

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #193
drusenko wrote: post #171

"Making a living" is simply doing something that enough people find value in -- the more people and the greater the value provided, the more money you make. Many artists focus on the process of art as one that is for themselves, which is completely fine - but don't expect to make a living out of it unless you are lucky and what you like is also what a lot of other people find value in. Some of the art/music that the…

i think its a little incongruous how people are much more open to the idea of pure science research, or math research, than the equivalent in music or art. both cases can yield untold benefits down the line.

The thing about science or math is that people do in fact not pay for those things. The government does most of the times (Universities) or cooperations do (research labs). I do not know a person that funds research themselves.

By the way, at least in my country (Austria) the government also spends money on artists, though I will admit that I am not aware of how big that part of the budget is. Most likely smaller than R&D though.

But in general most people also indirectly fund these things. Want a better camera in your phone? For that you will need better sensors, for that you need better factories, etc. At some point you reach the mathematicians or other scientists that are somewhat far removed from the product.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#255

Post by sushisource »

psi75 wrote: post #211
sushisource wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate a bit? When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. So, I think about how I could only write the software I want to write a decent amount. What did you do?

When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. This is completely normal. There is a conflict between what you know on a deep level and the false consciousness you are required to uphold, and that you do uphold by completing the work. The ground truth is…

Huh?

This is not the response I expected, and doesn't even really speak to what I asked. "How did you work more on the things you wanted to?" doesn't mean I expect to somehow magically only ever get to do what I want.

"Rich people paying us" automatically equaling evil is just such a weird thought. There are 7 billion people on the planet, and someone's got to do the work of keeping them alive, and most of that work is not going to be fun work someone wants to do.

That's reality. We're already lucky we get to write software instead of cleaning sewers or whatever. You can debate how necessary a lot of the jobs that exist are or aren't, or how wealth is distributed in society, but the fact that jobs exist that people don't really want to do isn't the result of some evil conspiracy cooked up by a cabal of rich people... it's just physics. Someone has to grow the vegetables.

If I paid you to garden tomatoes for me, is that "a signal" that I'm "poisoning the world"? If you don't like gardening, but I pay you enough that now you'll do it, does that somehow make me evil?

Weird, man.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#256

Post by Cro_on »

I resent the implication that my 9-5 depletes me of resources!

Construction is a wonderful industry for artists. You do labour, which is exercise, communicate with people well outside your bubble, and get paid a damn pretty penny for it!

I am certain that our energy resources are greater than they appear, and that dealing with a shitty customer / manager is much more depleting than work itself.

The beautiful part is that the customer (client) is almost never there, and construction managers more often than not just aren't that shitty, probably because they know you can just leave and get another decent job the next day.

N.B. probably not as good in small cities, or anywhere with low economic movement.

Artist workers of the world unite!

EDIT: it's actually (and quite commonly) a 7-3, which i personally think beats a 9-5 any day of the week...

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#257

Post by RestlessMind »

bsder wrote: post #133
vanadium1st wrote: post #87

Outside of my regular job, I am an indie folk music artist, trying to rise in the local music scene here in Dnipro, Ukraine. Even though learning to be a musician from scratch in my 20s was a hard process that took years and years, by far the hardest part of it was trying to establish a passive income, so I could have enough free time for practicing, performing and writing music. A lot of my talented peers are so muc…

I really do wish we had "basic income" in the US. Besides helping out the lowest socioeconomic class, it really seems like this would benefit artists, too.

Saudi Arabia or Scandinavian countries have generous welfare. What have their populations achieved?

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#258

Post by RestlessMind »

qaq wrote: post #228
ornornor wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it from the couple thousand stimulus checks or is it from the billions companies got for free?

was inflation mostly in industrial equipment or consumer goods?

Inflation was also in service sector (eg. restaurants jacking up prices due to cost of labor). Before implementing UBI, let's have an alternative system for jobs like janitors, restaurant workers, mall/retail workers etc.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#259

Post by bsder »

RestlessMind wrote: post #257
bsder wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do wish we had "basic income" in the US. Besides helping out the lowest socioeconomic class, it really seems like this would benefit artists, too.

Saudi Arabia or Scandinavian countries have generous welfare. What have their populations achieved?

I'm quite shocked that someone on HN would overlook the absurdly disproportionate to their population of the contributions of the Nordic and Scandinavian countries to the open source ecosystem.

And, let's take a stronger look at the UK, for example. Can you name a few people who were on the "dole"? I can start with J. K. Rowling and Noel Gallagher, to start.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#260

Post by personalidea »

digitallyfree wrote: post #92
pizzathyme wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work in the games industry, which was me trying to feed my family and pursue an art passion at the same time. It wasn’t great at either: pay is low and the art you get to make not so fulfilling. I switched a few years ago to splitting these apart: I (1) got a non art tech job that I love (which is key) and that pays great, and (2) I started doing pure artistic games on the side as a hobby, no need for money…

This sort of leads into the "debate" between two perspectives on work which I saw a lot in my school years. The first camp is those who believe that you should find a job in a field you love (maybe that's art). The idea is that even if you don't make much, you'll be happy and have the drive to do well. The second camp is that you should find a field you don't necessarily love, but is more stable/higher paying and thu…

Personally, the best advice (for me) on picking a career came from Hunter S Thompson:

Decide what kind of life you want to live, then find a job that supports that.

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