You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected • Hacker News Board

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#211

Post by psi75 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

sushisource wrote: post #192

matheusmoreira wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't paint for you. I paint for myself. It's part of my life. > A place where there are no compromises, no demands, no expectations, no projections, no assessments, no tasks, no metrics, no applause and no glory. > A place where I am happy. I have immense respect for you. I did something along these lines too: switched fields so I could write software for myself. The same reasons you listed resonated deeply with…

Can you elaborate a bit? When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. So, I think about how I could only write the software I want to write a decent amount. What did you do?

When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind.

This is completely normal. There is a conflict between what you know on a deep level and the false consciousness you are required to uphold, and that you do uphold by completing the work.

The ground truth is that, even though your boss probably isn't a bad or mean person, he too has a boss, who has a boss, and following the chain one almost always finds a vested interest in a corrupt status quo whereby a small set of hereditarily connected rent-seekers who stifle progress and don't care about anything but expanding their own wealth and power.

You can make money by collecting small donations from normal, decent people, but there aren't that many to go around, because the fact is that normal humans have almost no economic freedom. Modulo a rounding error, all money is blood money: it comes either from wealthy people and corporations who have evil intentions, or from governments that might have decent intentions but have been corrupted by evil psychopaths from the private-sector elite.

The fact that rich people are paying us to do something is as strong a signal as there could be that what we're doing is poisoning the world, possibly in a way we don't fully understand. Plus, any time we do something as a subordinate, we know that if we perform too well, we are sending a signal to people who are humiliating us (even if in a superficially professional and kind way) that treating us as subordinates works, and encouraging them to humiliate us even more.

The only reason the system doesn't collapse in an afternoon is that we're indoctrinated into bourgeois false consciousness. But something tells me you knew that already.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#212

Post by sershe » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:10 AM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #160

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #95

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

This is a very odd take and aggressive towards artists in a way that makes little sense. First, You’re arguing that rational labor input-output, the harder the better, and the resulting inputs it creates into a system, is the highest ideal or something. You’re missing that Art and various abstractions, to include the social sciences have played a major role in shaping history and our self identities for all of human…

I think the post is spot on. It's not really about how hard is the labor, it's specifically about value produced for others, for which "how much others are willing to pay you" is the best approximation we have.

To me, an average artist/band/... is at best, like an average roofer in the world where there are more roofers than houses - they are unnecessary and should do something else, or admit that roofing or art is just a side hobby. At worst, an average artist/band/... (the kind that the GP mentions, and I've certainly met) is like a roofer insisting that their personal roof that they are building on the ground level over a sand pit is inherently noble.

I think a better example is sports. On one hand, football players get paid a ton of money, by people who presumably consider it worthwhile, for "just playing a game once a week". On the other, imagine every relatively unimpressive rando on deviantart or whatever played football instead, on the same relatively unimpressive level. Do we need so many football players? Sure, they can do it as a hobby, but in terms of social value/making a living, we certainly don't.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#213

Post by sidlls » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

boredemployee wrote: post #136

sidlls wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true for almost any field.

Not for fields that require some kind of performance

Even fields that require performance can have strong networking requirements. Academia, software, traditional engineering, etc. One’s reputation is rarely purely or even strongly reputation based

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#214

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:26 AM UTC

psi75 wrote: post #211

sushisource wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate a bit? When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. So, I think about how I could only write the software I want to write a decent amount. What did you do?

When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. This is completely normal. There is a conflict between what you know on a deep level and the false consciousness you are required to uphold, and that you do uphold by completing the work. The ground truth is…

> one almost always finds a vested interest in a corrupt status quo whereby a small set of hereditarily connected rent-seekers who stifle progress and don't care about anything but expanding their own wealth and power

Case in point, posted here just yesterday:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32479652

Sometimes it feels like there's only two options: become one of these rent-seekers or find a way to opt out of this system.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#215

Post by mark_l_watson » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

I related to the article. Although I have supported myself by working sporadically for companies, I have put a fair amount of effort over the last 30 years into writing books. In recent years, my books are free to people who don’t want to pay for them, with my blessings. I do have a small following, I guess perhaps 3000 people, who pay for more than one of books. I was thinking the other day how nice it would be to eventually double this, but I really don’t care. I get good feedback and connections from people who enjoy my writing for free and I simply want my efforts to be useful. I do look at the distributions of fraction of paid readership for my books, and take that as a signal that those are the books people like the best so I do more revisions and updates for those books.

I am blown away how much fantastic amateur or semi-professional talent there is on platforms like YouTube. I believe in technology and a future world with much more leisure time and I expect many people will fill up some of that extra time doing crafts/hobbies, writing, making music, etc. I like de-emphasis of corporate media even if there will always be a place for that. I used to enjoy, long ago, corporate media news, keeping up to date, etc. Now, I skip most of that, listen a few times a month to private sources like Matt Taibbi, and I am very happy to reclaim that time by not listening to unproductive things like MSNBC, Fox, CNN, etc. Often that extra time I get back is just reading books and listening to music.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#216

Post by heliodor » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 2:51 AM UTC

psi75 wrote: post #211

sushisource wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate a bit? When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. So, I think about how I could only write the software I want to write a decent amount. What did you do?

When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. This is completely normal. There is a conflict between what you know on a deep level and the false consciousness you are required to uphold, and that you do uphold by completing the work. The ground truth is…

> The only reason the system doesn't collapse in an afternoon is that we're indoctrinated into bourgeois false consciousness.

The reason is that very few people prefer farming over their current jobs. No need for the poor-vs-rich demagoguing. What does "bourgeois false consciousness" even mean?

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#217

Post by hgs3 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 3:07 AM UTC

thethethethe wrote: post #33

Seems a little entitled to me. Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/write CRUD apps? Sounds like someone is upset that more people dont find utility in their work

> Why should artists be able to spend their time doing exactly what they want while all the boring plebs have to pick vegetables/write CRUD apps?

And why do these "boring pleb jobs" exist? Why doesn’t everyone create and share their creations? This isn’t limited to art. Consider the inventor of insulin sold the patent for $1 because he believed “Insulin belongs to the world, not to me.” Anyone who creates from the heart, artists scientists or otherwise, should be the gold standard that all humans live by. If everyone lived this way, then there would be no need for busy work jobs.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#218

Post by psi75 » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 3:11 AM UTC

heliodor wrote: post #216

psi75 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind. This is completely normal. There is a conflict between what you know on a deep level and the false consciousness you are required to uphold, and that you do uphold by completing the work. The ground truth is…

> The only reason the system doesn't collapse in an afternoon is that we're indoctrinated into bourgeois false consciousness. The reason is that very few people prefer farming over their current jobs. No need for the poor-vs-rich demagoguing. What does "bourgeois false consciousness" even mean?

You're proposing a false dichotomy: that we either go back to an agrarian lifestyle or accept the status quo.

Technology is a good thing. Industry is a good thing. We can keep them.

What we don't need is the ruling class. They take the lion's share of the resources, and they don't do anything useful to justify what we pay to subsidize their pampered existences. We can rip them out and things will still work.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#219

Post by swayvil » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 3:25 AM UTC

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #121

swayvil wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not by default. 1 in a 1000. But still. And we're talking all realms of unrestrained creative effort here. Science, technology and stories about dragons. Opensource software as well as basement watercolorists. This is where the shiny new legos of our society come from.

This seems a little motte-and-baileyish. You start with "arts make the world a better place" and when presented with a critique you retreat towards "arts are the same as technology and science, let's treat them as one single group", which I don't buy.

It arises from the same free unpressured space in your life. It's the same step up to creation and experimentation and play. Just different mediums. Watercolor, thought, machinery... So let's not draw any unnecessary differentiations.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#220

Post by heliodor » Wed, Aug 17, 2022, 3:44 AM UTC

psi75 wrote: post #218

heliodor wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only reason the system doesn't collapse in an afternoon is that we're indoctrinated into bourgeois false consciousness. The reason is that very few people prefer farming over their current jobs. No need for the poor-vs-rich demagoguing. What does "bourgeois false consciousness" even mean?

You're proposing a false dichotomy: that we either go back to an agrarian lifestyle or accept the status quo. Technology is a good thing. Industry is a good thing. We can keep them. What we don't need is the ruling class. They take the lion's share of the resources, and they don't do anything useful to justify what we pay to subsidize their pampered existences. We can rip them out and things will still work.

Rip them out and then you'll just have a new ruling class. It will be the next layer down. Humans are not equal. Most strive to accomplish things. Put those two together and it leads to unequal results.

What false dichotomy? Either you are within the hierarchy that is humanity or you go (relatively) independent, meaning you need to produce your own food at the very least.

Instead of hating humanity for what it inherently is, maybe your anger comes from an understanding that the rules aren't fair. So maybe propose that we should strive for a world where the laws are fairer, so that people can feel that their efforts are not in vain and that they're not being taken advantage of.

>They take the lion's share of the resources, and they don't do anything useful to justify what we pay to subsidize their pampered existences.

That sounds like ideology without logic:

"They take the lion's share of the resources" -> Actually, they earn it based on the current set of laws, through some variable amount of effort.

"pampered existence" -> No need to name call. We all have different circumstances in life. Don't worry, those people you hate have their own problems and their own stressors. They're just different than yours. Just because they have plenty of food and shelter doesn't mean their lives are all smiles.

"subsidize" -> fix the laws or whatever is causing the subsidizing, if indeed there is subsidizing. Hating the players is not productive.

"they don't do anything useful" -> they run companies, they run the government, etc. Those are useful things.