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You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

cdahmedeh.net

191–200 of 273 posts

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#191

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

> Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginners who haven't accomplished much yet.

Lots of beginners in every field think that they're God's gift to whatever it is that they've just started. They're going to change the world, etc. That comes with the territory of being a beginner. Usually they mellow with age and experience.

>I have more admiration for someone who's laying down cement in 100 degree weather to put a roof over their family's heads, or someone who's putting in the hours massaging mindnumbingly boring spreadsheets to be able to support themselves, or someone putting in overtime at a hospital. The expectation that people must support you and give you preferential treatment because you're expressing yourself never made sense to me.

Just because you don't see the hours of training and production that goes into something, doesn't mean it isn't there. I might spend 10,000 hours practicing to spend 200 hours writing a novel that you read in 20 hours. I might spend four years in college and ten years writing a computer program that you'll use once. Lots of artwork is produced as work for hire. That doesn't make it that much different than any other job. A trained professional getting payment for services rendered is how things have worked since antiquity. Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel ceiling because he was commissioned to, not just because he was expressing himself

> You always see signs exhorting you to "support your local artists", yet you never see encouragement to support your local roofers.

You see signs asking you to support local roofers all the time. What do you think all of those commercials on radio, television, print media, billboards, etc. are that advertising all of the roofing services?

Roofers produce roofs. Chefs produce food. Artists produce art. It takes labor to produce art, and if you want good art, it also takes years of training and practice. But somehow working to produce art is seen as 'lesser' than doing manual physical labor.

It's weird. It's expected that in most professions even beginners deserve to get paid. But the arts are somehow different. There's this expectation that artists should produce works for the benefit of society (and don't forget, 'art' is much more than just drawing pretty pictures, it's also the vast field of fine art, music, movies, television, writing, and a lot of other media) but that the work should be free. There's this unspoken feeling that since lots of art is easy to appreciate, it must have been easy to create, so paying for it is a waste of money. But have you ever tried to paint a picture? Compose a song? Write a novel? It's hard. It takes time. It can take thousands of hours of practice before you make anything good.

It's kind of like arguing that a programmer asking for money for the programming work that they do is somehow shaming people into supporting them for typing all day instead of doing real work that commands real pay like bricklaying or cattle ranching.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#192
post #141

A little life story: I had commercial success in art at the humble age of 23. Not only were my paintings respected and collected by accomplished and wealthy individuals, they formed commissions for years to come. My success was the result of an obsession with craftsmanship and clever word-of-mouth marketing. Suddenly, one day after insisting on meeting the deadline of the expensive commission, I had a headache and my…

> I don't paint for you. I paint for myself. It's part of my life. > A place where there are no compromises, no demands, no expectations, no projections, no assessments, no tasks, no metrics, no applause and no glory. > A place where I am happy. I have immense respect for you. I did something along these lines too: switched fields so I could write software for myself. The same reasons you listed resonated deeply with…

Can you elaborate a bit? When I have a project I'm really exited about working on I'm productive and it feels great, when it's something I have to do for the business but I don't love the project, I'm slow and doing the work is a grind.

So, I think about how I could only write the software I want to write a decent amount.

What did you do?

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#193

"Making a living" is simply doing something that enough people find value in -- the more people and the greater the value provided, the more money you make. Many artists focus on the process of art as one that is for themselves, which is completely fine - but don't expect to make a living out of it unless you are lucky and what you like is also what a lot of other people find value in. Some of the art/music that the…

i think its a little incongruous how people are much more open to the idea of pure science research, or math research, than the equivalent in music or art. both cases can yield untold benefits down the line.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#194

There's a lot of entitlement from "artists" who sit on a moral high horse and expect special treatment because they're "expressing a higher truth" while the rest of us normies toil in obscurity and sell our souls to corporate overlords to pay the bills. Not all artists are like that, and IME the more successful and experienced ones are the least likely to think that way, but the attitude is quite common with beginner…

Well said, harsh, but the truth. Expression is obessive to self because its unique to you. A lot of artists expect their expression to be universally profound and expect society to reward them for their contribution. It doesn't work that way. High art world is basically tokenization of wealth and a medium to transfer (ahem..launder) money from one party to another. It is deeply memetic, a value of piece of art is dictated by how much mimesis it embodies amongst the wealthy clan of art collectors and critics. Artist is sort of a secondary artifact here.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#195

This piece touches on the inherent tension between originality and selling out (or selling to the masses) that I've definitely seen in comic circles. So many aspiring indie artists/comic creators who think Patreon is their easy ticket to a passive and liveable income when the stark reality is much different. It's why my first piece of advice to any creative is to have a dayjob that maximizes their free time to create…

there's a screenshot of greentext from one of the *chans where a visual artist describes the physical and mental revulsion of furry art (the artist is revolted), and the fact that no matter what, they pay the most, usually up front. the artist would love to make normal commissions, but there's no money in it. I've personally been part of about a dozen musical albums, i've never seen a penny or any recognition for it.…

> If you've heard the "NAIMINA" recording of UVB-76, that was something that was originally put on the internet by me.

I use this recording as part of a strange personal radio station project, it's one of the burst samples I use for flavor. I love that noise. Thanks man!

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#196

Per this thread, apparently some engineers really dislike artists. I wonder if this is because artists and engineers both claim expertise in the meaning making process - a painting, or an app. I make my paycheck via that meaningless tech money like most others here, but that aside, I’m under no illusions that I’m doing much beyond solving crossword puzzles for high pay and providing for my family. Every time tech wad…

It seems to that by artist or author, the blogger is referring to being paid for original self-expression. If you are willing to compromise on self-expression, that seems easy enough to earn a living wage (e.g. in advertising or gaming, or as the blogger's profession of being a technical writer).

It seems obvious to me that hardly anyone primarily cares to pay for the self-expression of any other, except perhaps for their close ones. With media, the market pays primarily for aesthetic value, communicative ability, branding value, socio-political expression, store of money, etc., rather than for the self-expression of the author.

Nobody else really expects to get paid for self-expression itself; on the other hand, most of us commission others to express ourselves, e.g. in fashion or decoration, or at the very least in our own materials and time for something that has no value to others. So it seems privileged to me to expect to be paid in a sustainable manner for primarily doing something that most people have to pay others for.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#197
post #141

A little life story: I had commercial success in art at the humble age of 23. Not only were my paintings respected and collected by accomplished and wealthy individuals, they formed commissions for years to come. My success was the result of an obsession with craftsmanship and clever word-of-mouth marketing. Suddenly, one day after insisting on meeting the deadline of the expensive commission, I had a headache and my…

> I don't paint for you. I paint for myself. It's part of my life. A place where there are no compromises, no demands, no expectations, no projections, no assessments, no tasks, no metrics, no applause and no glory. That sounds idealistic to the point of foolishness. The end result of your decision to quit art was that you had to get a job as a graphic designer. Doesn't that achieve even less of your vision? A lot of…

The Story of a Fisherman https://www.highview.com.au/the-story-of-a-fisherman/

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#198
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just spent about 15 minutes scrolling and I’ll grant that the best 2 or 3 examples are better than the low low bar of some random crap on the social network of amateur art. Even those have weird artifacts and an utterly odd quality that feels inhuman. The best looking ones in general feel like banksy painting a character into a flea market painting, collage.

Give it another year. These models will only get better.

Maybe, but also maybe not. They don't really "understand" context and they don't know what something like Dutch Realism means, and they can't engage in artistic conversation with other artists. They're inherently derivative, and the output is only digital. A real painting has texture, brush strokes that rise off the canvas, and so on. Sculpture has tool marks, imperfections of casting, and little accidents related to their physicality.

Again, this shit isn't art it's images with mashed together elements built by a system that has no sense of what it's doing. It's cool and all, but at best it's a pale imitation of a thing.

Re: You can't afford to be an artist and/or author, let alone be respected

#200
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patronage. Honestly music was profitable for a very brief period of time between around 1940s-1990's. Every other time in history it's required someone rich to like you enough to pay you to do it, or be a traveling minstrel who lived on the edge of society. Like even Wagner who is arguably one of the most influential and popular composers of all time spent most of his life destitute and only was stable when the Kaise…

Hypothetically music should be priced like medicine or drugs. What you "get" out of it is a mood, like a stimulant or depressant (but with more complexity and side effects). "For $20, I can sell you this audio file that makes you yearn for the deep friendships you created that summer a few years ago. Side effects may include vivid visual memories and internal hallucinations of what could have been, sudden mood swings…

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