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Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

theverge.com

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Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#471

Post by cma »

nemo44x wrote: post #315
dieselgate wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I guess so but we (americans) also have to worry about healthcare and having (basically) no parental leave etc so always kind of figured it wasn’t as good as it sounds. Open to interpretation maybe. Was under the impression Australians are paid very well in comparison? Like pretty good minimum wages and holidays - in addition to lucrative trades work. Just have personal experience to vouch for his though.

Most tech companies here have 3-4 months of parental leave and have free or nearly free healthcare. High value workers in the USA are the best compensated in the world by a wide margin. Other places are better for low value workers.

High value tech workers make a lot because:

Their companies figured out a way to make Ford pay millions to be the first result for "Ford" when a user searches for "Ford" instead of users getting a result for "Chevy" (tiny ad disclaimer and recent court cases overseas notwithstanding). https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/why-businesses-have-...

Other successful ones (often the same companies actually) charge (even after their expenses) a higher fee than federal taxes to be part of their store, compelled by a series of hidden ecosystem costs to the consumers, monopolization tactics, and network effects. That company in Europe with the low profit per employee is potentially paying out 30% of their gross (taxes are at least only on net) to one of these.

Basically many of these jobs are "bullshit jobs," working on problems the companies themselves create to rip people off.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#472

Post by rasz »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #459
rasz wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans use weird tricks like charging two digit margin on medication, socialized education, and taxing fuel to pay for road maintenance.

They also use weird tricks like underpaying health staff (doctors and nurses make 40% of what they do in the US, look at NHS salary tables), relying on US defense subsidies, and taxing everyone making over 100k at insane rates. We already have "socialized education" in public schools in most blue states if you make under 120k. The financial aid is generous enough that you aren't paying any tuition. The 70k sticker pr…

>underpaying health staff

yes, things like surgeries or dental dont bankrupt you in Europe, and doctors dont automatically become millionaires collecting vintage cars or buying private planes.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#473

Post by ungamedplayer »

kensai wrote: post #422
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #170

FWIW Ford was hiring around this area (southern Ontario) for software engineers to work on their in-car systems like this. Not sure if this specific one. From what I've heard they were woefully underpaying. A friend of mine talked to them -- very qualified; like me he worked on similar touchscreen, interactive display type systems at Google/Nest, and had a general background on similar systems, and on QNX, etc. They…

Excuse me guys, but I think your comments although interesting for their story are out of place here. The Verge articles talks about a slow computer. The F150 issues can literally be fixed if Ford decides to install a quicker one on MY23. What does this thing have to do with software engineers payment and the rant that followed?

>. The F150 issues can literally be fixed if Ford decides to install a quicker one on MY23.

Have you profiled the code ? Understood the bottlenecks? I have not, not convinced the writer has either.

The old "throw more hardware at it approach", doesn't fix poorly written algorithms.

I am tempted to take a joke at your expense here, but that won't further the conversation.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#474

Post by saiya-jin »

kelnos wrote: post #388
assttoasstmgr wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The OP wrote: > They tried to lowball him badly. Like 1/2 the rate he asked for (contract) and probably 1/3rd or 1/4 what we made at Google FAANG arrogance never ceases to amaze me. It's like these guys live in a different universe blissfully unaware of the world around them. Did it ever occur to him maybe Ford is paying normal average human salaries and not grossly inflated Google wages? Remember Ford (and thi…

I think that's besides the point. If a qualified developer can get paid more elsewhere, they'll go elsewhere, and Ford will end up with marginally- or un-qualified developers. That's just how the job market works.

Sure, but you have to look at total costs, span over lifetime. How long will it take you to pay for that house you probably live in? How much time do you waste commuting? How draining is your job? How much do you spent when going out on some show, restaurant etc? How close to true nature are you?

I've followed money in my job decisions in the past and it has worked out OK for me so far, but of course I have no clue how my life would look like with other choices. But living in cramped place like SF for double the salary (thats max) and double the costs... no thank you.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#475

Post by nkrisc »

kccqzy wrote: post #337
nkrisc wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is you really shouldn’t be doing anything apart from adjusting the A/C while driving. It’s all dangerous to do, whether it’s a touchscreen or buttons. Everyone does it, but nothing will make it safe.

If you're going down this path, what makes you single out adjusting the A/C? My car has a physical knob to adjust the temperature of the A/C that I can locate without looking, but I need to look at the seven-segment display to see the temperature being adjusted. How is that different from looking at a touchscreen and tapping a button on the screen?

It’s risky too, but it’s pretty much the only thing on the center console that is directly related to your physical comfort which will impact your concentration. That’s why I made an exception for it.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#476

Post by deepGem »

KronisLV wrote: post #455
deepGem wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this sentiment everywhere outside the tech first ecosystem. In the generalization of 'workers'/'engineers' v/s 'supervisors'/'managers', programmers are often seen as just workers. For whatever reason, an MBA or even a BBA is seen as an officer/supervisor. Even product teams at tech first companies tend to represent this dogma. There are exceptions but the programmers are workers dogma is prevalent in this worl…

> ... they will almost never be able to build a software driven car, which is the car of the future. Software can make a lot of things better, but for whatever reason most cars end up with closed software solutions with a limited amount of updates, problems with how responsive/inefficient they are and a plethora of other complications. At that point, slapping an Android tablet on the dash for navigation might be a be…

The principles behind the auto industry are primarily driven by the last motive. To pump up the price for some shitty upgrade that not many really want. It's the same core, with a few upgrades that are super cheap to manufacture. Like a dashboard change or change a knob to a button etc.

It's like selling a new iPhone with just a few changes to some superficial apps such as I donno, Numbers.

Agree with you on a modular car where you just let people customise and build whatever the heck they want. I even think you should be able to customize a 2 seater v/s a 4/5 seater with plenty of options.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#477

Post by nkrisc »

akomtu wrote: post #437
nkrisc wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is you really shouldn’t be doing anything apart from adjusting the A/C while driving. It’s all dangerous to do, whether it’s a touchscreen or buttons. Everyone does it, but nothing will make it safe.

In this case, looking into side mirrors is dangerous, but not looking into them is also dangerous. Thus driving is dangerous, but walking is dangerous too, so better to sit in a safe room away from the dangers.

Driving is dangerous. But looking in your side mirrors is necessary. But looking too long is dangerous, especially in stop and go traffic.

My point is not that we should do nothing because everything is dangerous, but that we should minimize the risk by avoiding things that are unnecessary.

Adjusting the radio is almost certainly unnecessary to drive.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#478

Post by cmrdporcupine »

assttoasstmgr wrote: post #355
jfim wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they have the margins that allows them to pay equivalent salaries? From what I recall, Meta and Google have gross revenues on the order of one million in revenue per employee, while SAP AG has revenue per employee around 200k.

This. The OP wrote: > They tried to lowball him badly. Like 1/2 the rate he asked for (contract) and probably 1/3rd or 1/4 what we made at Google FAANG arrogance never ceases to amaze me. It's like these guys live in a different universe blissfully unaware of the world around them. Did it ever occur to him maybe Ford is paying normal average human salaries and not grossly inflated Google wages? Remember Ford (and thi…

Putting your accusations of arrogance aside, the point is ultimately this: unlike the work done by a worker on an assembly line, software work scales out "infinitely." You may pay that team of developers a huge amount but the work they have done is reproduced at "zero" cost hundreds of thousand of times.

It makes sense to invest in quality there.

I have made the point that ad revenue distorts FAANG practices elsewhere. I agree on this. You'll note that myself and my friend had no intention of seeking a FAANG salary elsewhere, it's unrealistic. However. There are limits. And sane practices.

The low compensation band reflects a lack of recognition of a) the importance of software and b) the economics of it. It isn't just that they pay bad, it's that they produce bad software because they don't get it.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#479

Post by saiya-jin »

sjfidsfkds wrote: post #407
weq wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top of the developed world in infant mortality and school shootings too! Us outside the US, who had the option to come and joining a FAANG; call it danger money.

School shootings kill dozens of people per year in the US, it’s a similar magnitude risk as lightning strikes or train crashes. Infant mortality in the US is more common and indicative of problems that affect a lot of people. Namely, inequality in access to high-quality prenatal health care, and obesity. If you’re coming to work as a software engineer in the US, you are going to get good health insurance for yourself…

School shooting is bad example, it gets a lot of headlines but means nothing when averaged for whole US population.

There are other, more serious topics which somebody from ie Europe who isn't desperate for money should consider. Overall workoholic culture and much less free paid days and vacations (no, 20 days per year isn't that great rather bare minimum, 30 begins to be interesting if you actually want to have great life before retirement, on top of plenty of public holidays). Overall crime rates are important though, and thats very high in US for an european. Your taxes are (well repeatedly were, and definitely will be again) used to kill some poor civilians half around the globe for no moral reason whatsoever, bravo for making the world a better place. Low food/produce quality, the amount of NOK chemistry and procedures for growing and raising cattle that is banned in EU is staggering. Most of the country apart from big cities is remarkably full of backwardish fanatical christians, I mean isn't teaching evolution still banned in most schools? Abortions topic?

Healthcare is a topic on its own. There were many posts here before that even with good insurance, you pay hefty sums and very well earning folks were desperate to save enough for high quality healthcare for retirement, especially once you know you have some long term issue for the rest of your life (which we all end up having unless dying way too early). What about when you are between jobs? Or if you retire, since obviously this is when you need good medical system the most? If you had big accident/serious long term illness and employer fires you?

Raising kids - TCO is ridiculously huge, mainly due to University fees that in Europe you often simply just don't have, or they are rather token sums. Public schools are often crap with heavily underpaid teachers (the salary part is probably true everywhere though).

So you end up with higher income but you can lose it very easily if you have bad luck / ignore your health, or simply have few smart kids. Not even going into the topic of being treated as sub-human by US government, since you are not US citizen and somehow doesn't deserve basic human rights when it suits them.

Of course there are many positives but that's another topic.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning: Fast Truck, Slow Computer

#480

Post by cmrdporcupine »

kensai wrote: post #451
nemothekid wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The F150 issues can literally be fixed if Ford decides to install a quicker one on MY23. I’m unconvinced the problem can be fixed by “installing a quicker computer”. The functionality here isn’t materially different from what Tesla offered almost 10 years ago at this point. If nearly 10 years of hardware advancements couldn’t close the gap, a marginally faster computer next year won’t do it either.

The unavoidable Tesla comparison sorry, I am not convinced. What functionality is better? Not everybody is interested in fart apps or Steam games or other questionable "extra" functionality. OK, let's just say that Tesla has better software. It lacks however in other departments, such a build quality. But fact of the matter is here the following: if one reads The Verge article, his complains are mainly about the slow…

In embedded, software developers are always running up against the bean-counters trying to get the BOM cost lower. You can pretty much expect an underpowered SoC.

It's the job of embedded developers to work with the constraints. This isn't end consumer hardware. The cost of the device is multiplied by the number of cars shipped. So you keep it as low as you can.

You have a budget of cycles between display refreshes. Often the perception of slowness is not that the throughput of the software is too much for the hardware, it's that the work is done in the wrong place or wrong time. It's that the budget was poorly allocated -- work was done in the wrong thread or on the wrong core or in the wrong loop or at the wrong time.

All of this to say the perception of bad performance on these type of devices can honestly just come down to sloppy programming, not the power of the device.

Because in the end, what are they actually doing? Mostly just moving stuff around on the screen. The thing isn't computing a giant spreadsheet or blockchain crap. It's telling the MCU in the climate system to turn on.

So you learn how your display controller works, and you optimize optimize optimize.

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