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Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

arstechnica.com

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Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#21

Post by sliverstorm »

joshAg wrote: post #15
PotatoEngineer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would encourage piracy. If you pirate a movie right when it comes out, that's $20 or so, but after a year, it gets closer to $10. So: pirate it now, pay next year's price in the worst case!

no, past year based on the time of infringement, not time of conviction, so if you pirate it June 25, 2011, you pay the cheapest price between June 26th, 2010 and June 25th 2011.

Either way, you're still left with the choice:

1) Pay $20 to see movie

2) Pirate movie and maybe have to pay $20 sometime later. Maybe.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#22

Post by pyre »

masterzora wrote: post #14
MaxGabriel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. Second, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bank robbers to request that they're not sentenced to death for robbing banks? Can't they argue the punishment doesn't match the crime?

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

  > Under US law, to be a felon you have to have been
  > convicted of a felony.
Don't worry. The RIAA/MPAA will be remedying this with another bill after they ram SOPA through.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#23

Post by pyre »

nextparadigms wrote: post #19
masterzora wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

Copyright infringement is not shoplifting.

He's arguing that "everyone is doing it" isn't proof that something is good.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#24

Post by jacobolus »

masterzora wrote: post #14
MaxGabriel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. Second, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bank robbers to request that they're not sentenced to death for robbing banks? Can't they argue the punishment doesn't match the crime?

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

> If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals.

Yes it would. Laws are not “good” or “bad” in a vacuum; they’re just the written-down versions of agreed-upon social relations – specifically, agreed upon by whoever in the society has enough social and economic power (and in a democracy, votes) to get a law enacted and enforced.

At the point where “everyone” was shoplifting, we’d be in some kind of social situation where the strictures against stealing had completely broken down. This happens sometimes, for example in rebellions or disaster zones. When there’s a revolution and a mass of people loot, throw out, kill, etc. existing power-holders, it quite clearly “indicates a problem” with the previous set of laws in the society, no matter how vehemently those elites protest. Usually, in modern democracies, we have enough mutual respect and a sufficiently broad distribution of power that things don’t get to the point of complete breakdown of order.

In this particular example, where there are fines in the $100Ks for something that most people have done and don’t consider bad, there’s quite clearly a problem with the law.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#25

Post by ugh »

masterzora wrote: post #14
MaxGabriel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. Second, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bank robbers to request that they're not sentenced to death for robbing banks? Can't they argue the punishment doesn't match the crime?

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

Not really, no. Laws should fit the society, not the other way around. Laws that lock up everyone are unjust laws, no matter the crime. Everything else would be a misguided adherence to laws.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#26

Post by masterzora »

nextparadigms wrote: post #19
masterzora wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

Copyright infringement is not shoplifting.

Goddammit, I knew someone was going to trot that line out.

You see, I never said copyright infringement was shoplifting, or related to shoplifting, in any way. Just because someone uses the words "copyright" and "shoplifting" in the same post doesn't mean that they are saying copyright infringement is shoplifting.

In my above post shoplifting was only an example. My post makes just as much as sense if I replace shoplifting with murder and copyright infringement with cannabis possession. Or shoplifting with arson and copyright infringement with being left handed.

The underlying logic I quoted is what was wrong, not the categorisation, so stop jerking your knee.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#27

Post by chaz »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #6

Even better than the statistic quoted in the title, 48% of Americans don't believe any fine or other punishment should exist at all. The quoted statistic actually refers to 75% of the remaining 52%.

This is actually the larger issue -- that piracy isn't viewed as something that should be illegal. The fines are just a detail of applicable punishment, and exorbitantly high fines are a distraction.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#28

Post by joshAg »

sliverstorm wrote: post #21
joshAg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, past year based on the time of infringement, not time of conviction, so if you pirate it June 25, 2011, you pay the cheapest price between June 26th, 2010 and June 25th 2011.

Either way, you're still left with the choice: 1) Pay $20 to see movie 2) Pirate movie and maybe have to pay $20 sometime later. Maybe.

Sure but how is that different from now? aside from the cost of the fine, there really isn't, and I'd argue that the specter of a large fine is having little effect on piracy anyway.

Re: Sweet sanity: 75% of Americans say infringement fines should be under $100

#30

Post by MichaelGG »

masterzora wrote: post #14
MaxGabriel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. Second, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bank robbers to request that they're not sentenced to death for robbing banks? Can't they argue the punishment doesn't match the crime?

First, it does indicate a problem with the copyright system when such a large number of people (+50%, per Free Culture) are 'felons' under US law and liable for hundreds of thousands in damages. While I agree with your conclusions, the logic here is flawed. If everyone started shoplifting, for example, it wouldn't indicate a problem with the laws that people are now criminals. (Sidenote: Only a small number of people…

The flaw there is that the only reason copyright exists is to benefit the public. If the public is finding it's against the current copyright laws, it's copyright that should change to suit the public, not the other way around.
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