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Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

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Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#251
post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

I do think that take home tasks are the best way to hire somebody (or letting somebody bring their existing, recent code and talk about that). At the same time, I think companies should pay applications if this take home task takes more than 1-2 hours. I'm not saying you need to pay a lot, I think it's more a symbolic gesture of respect. Those costs are negligible for a company compared to the money and resources they spend on hiring/recruiting.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#253
I recently went through an interview/exam with a takehome portion. The company indicated "this shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours". For me, it was 2.5 hours. And... I wouldn't want to do dozens of these, but doing one or two every couple of years isn't too much of a burden, imo. But I know everyone's tolerance is a bit different.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#254
I agree completely. These things are ways for companies to waste your time in the interview, and make it harder. Job interviews used to be 1 hour and a handshake. Then a reference check.

Let me tell you why that was better than the current hiring meta.

1) I can learn everything I need to know in an hour with someone. 2 will likely not drastically give me a better idea. 8 hours with someone is not 8 times better, it just doesn't scale like that. So the idea that the more work you give a candidate, or the more interviews, or whatever, the better your hiring practice, it's just not true.

2) People can be very nervous in interviews. It's an intimidating, adversarial environment that has no relation at all to the job or work. It's almost the beginning of the way for the company to treat you as lesser, and they will take advantage of that to screw you these days. As you say, they will just ghost you. They didn't used to do this nearly so much. They'd at least send you a letter, or give you a call.

3) Even if 1 and 2 weren't true, the questions asked in interviews have no relationship with the real job. You just can't ramp up in time, etc. There's too much learning. Picture an intern. They do nothing except take everyone's time for the first month, but it's the rest that matters. Will they get something useful done before they leave? Maybe. But it does take a while to ramp up. So interview questions don't judge job performance.

But we still do it, because people like that tinge of power I guess. That feeling of control in that you can say yes or no to someone, they have to placate you for the job, etc. A lot of interviewers I know act very strange in interviews too, and they don't act that normally.

For the interviewee, it's even worse. You waste your time, you spend a lot of emotional energy, you don't know if you like the people you'd be working with, you don't know really what you'll work on, and no matter what you have to do what your boss says anyway, which can change at any time. Oh and it's "right-to-work" so they can fire you any time for any reason.

It's much more useful to talk to their previous boss or friends or references. Even if they are biased, you can usually tell pretty quick again who is telling you nonsense. At least then you can hear real stories about real situations in the past, rather than useless hypotheticals. But we don't do that anymore because of liability from lawsuits in hiring. Because a lot of companies are actively discriminating. Some are passively doing it, some are trying to do better but are hopeless. So everyone is just covering their ass.

Sounds like a great deal!

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#255
post #34

I do a lot of interviews for my company. We do coding assignments OR let you bring some code. We just want to talk with you about code that you are very familiar with and confident to talk about. Almost everyone chooses to do the small coding assignment, because they don't have code to bring.

For personal project there will not be a TDD so coder not willing to share their existing codes. I rather showcase my skills in a new development than say already done one.

The company I work for now has a similar approach. I showed a personal project and eventually got an offer. It's not even a particularly great one, as I had not worked on it in a couple years.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#256
post #152
post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

The problem with tech recruiting is that each company does its own, and so job seekers repeat the process many times with different employers. There should be some kind of test that would be recognized by the industry, that you could attempt once every six months for example, and that would positively assess your ability to code. You would get a score that you could show to recruiters (if you wished to). Some recruit…

You would need cartel-like control over the industry to make that work--as exists in the medical industry or legal industry. Without that hiring people just under a generally accepted cut off like 90 would be a form of gaming the system (hiring someone good and cheap but unavailable to bigtechco) that would kill the system.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally, someone with a sensible position on this. Interviewing sucks, but the people on the other side of the table don't know you or your skillset. You have to give them some sort of objective information to work with. The position I really don't understand are those who think as a "senior" (whatever that means) engineer you should be able to walk in, answer a few questions, and then be hired just because you have…

Yeah, what's really strange is realizing that others buy into the instagram resume hype. I'll keep things anonymous to protect the guilty, but one example I know about personally is a somewhat famous Googler in a specific domain, who actually gets cited here once in awhile for his work in said domain. He used to work at a much more backwater company with a friend of mine. He was working on a project for 12 months bef…

I'm not sure what the takeaway is supposed to be from this comment, because clearly a Googler is capable of passing Google-difficult coding interviews. If the emperor has no cloths, so to speak, then coding tests don't filter that out either.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#258
post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

In what other professions do you need to take some practical test during an interview? Do you hear of electrical engineers that are asked to draw some circuit on a whiteboard, or to solder something?

Actually, when I was an undergrad looking for internships, I interviewed at Blue Origin for some embedded role and was asked to draw an simple RC circuit. I was super nervous and forgot the symbol for a capacitor, and just told my interviewer that and made one up. I did not get an offer from them (luckily, in retrospect)

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they aren’t. Most working engineers don’t even bother with a PE. Think of all the marketing, sales, Human Resources jobs etc…

To me, PE means either pulmonary embolism or private equity (and I have a hard time trying to decide with one I'd rather have to deal with). Which is to say there are too many initialisms these days and I have no idea what you mean even in context, and I wish people would take the time to write out words.

PE is a long-standing title for a professional engineer which requires time on the job and another rigorous test and is common vernacular if you ever intersected with an engineering school or department in college or worked with an engineer in a professional capacity. And software “engineering” doesn’t count.

Would you expect MD or CPA to be spelled out every time?

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Nearly every other industry is credentialed and a degree is enough to get hired? I don't think that matches reality at all.

Lawyers need to have passed the bar. Accountants need their CPA. Doctors their MD. Pharmacists their Pharm.D. Finance professionals their CFA. And so on. Software engineers making 150K with only a four year degree and some leetcode have nothing to complain about. Take homes? Whiteboards? Cry me a river. Try to pass the bar or get through residency instead.

You pass the bar 1 time. Not every couple years.
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