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Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

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Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#191

Post by crispyambulance »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

> Apparently the approved HN method is to arrange the resumes on a dartboard, throw darts at it, and commit up front to hiring whoever you hit unconditionally for at least two years without no possibility of having to fire them.

Yes, but to be fair, I am not convinced that such a method would yield drastically worse results than what is already done at many places. I am not totally being facetious about that either!

It's a jungle. People get hired or rejected for all kinds of reasons, meritocracy has less to do with it than we would all like.

The best approach is to keep one's professional network well-maintained so that when it comes time to change, your reputation precedes you. That's not always possible. Some jobs really are filled from candidates who drop their resume into an anonymous applicant vat on the web and hope for the best. But I think the best-fit jobs are often obtained when you know someone and they know you.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#192

Post by hotpotamus »

sarchertech wrote: post #134
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Outside of tech, any other white collar interview is basically a 15-60 minute coffee or lunch with the boss (the culture fit interview basically) and then, unless you showed some red flags, you g…

Except they aren’t. Most working engineers don’t even bother with a PE. Think of all the marketing, sales, Human Resources jobs etc…

To me, PE means either pulmonary embolism or private equity (and I have a hard time trying to decide with one I'd rather have to deal with). Which is to say there are too many initialisms these days and I have no idea what you mean even in context, and I wish people would take the time to write out words.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#193

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

I have found a large drop-off in time wasters after using Starblazer for my scheduling. Not to shill or anything, these recruiters are getting paid 10% to do jack-shit for you so I just send them my scheduling link with my hourly rate... you wanna talk to me? pay me (https://bk.starblazer.pro/Lazaro)

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#194

Post by drabadur »

For Japanese companies, it seems to be common to ask candidates to complete coding assignments before any interview. These assignments are usually extremely complex, and would take maybe 2-3 days to complete, depending on the candidates experience.

Combine this with relatively low salaries even for experienced developers, I don't think it is something anyone should want to do, no matter how much you'd love to go there.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#195

Post by warrenm »

datalopers wrote: post #50

It’s odd to me how people complain so much about being asked to write code (whiteboard, take-home, leetcode puzzles) in order to land a coding job. Is a prospective employer supposed to suss this out entirely through verbal questions?

>Is a prospective employer supposed to suss this out entirely through verbal questions?

Yes

It's really not that hard to ask questions that evaluate a candidate's ability without devolving into trivia

Programming is merely logical thought converted into a terse form that a computer can execute

Ask how to solve a problem; ask what needs to be considered to solve it; ask what corner cases does the initial answer not cover; ask for something like a confidence interval on how likely you think errors will happen (and how you plan to respond to them); ask how the program needs to change when you convert it from a cgi-bin/ C program to Ruby or PHP or Go; ask how a solution looks different in any two of the languages the candidate knows/likes

Would you only hire a surgeon after they demonstrate an appendectomy? Would you hire a mechanic only after they demonstrate building a transmission from spare parts?

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#197

Post by koinedad »

walthamstow wrote: post #80

Counterpoint: as a self-taught SWE with only a degree in economics, I wouldn't have been able to get my first job in the industry without a take-home assignment. It was the only possible way to demonstrate that I was qualified to take the job.

This was me as well, albeit the company asked me to time box the take home test to 1 hour, which I think is fairly reasonable.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#198

Post by activitypea »

jerf wrote: post #76

According to the HN gestalt, you shouldn't do a whiteboard interview because that's too unrealistic because nobody programs on a whiteboard, you shouldn't expect programmers to code with their laptop in an interview because that's too much pressure and also unrealistic, you shouldn't expect programmers to be willing to do a take home exam because that's too much work without money (and if people did pay, the complain…

My rule is that the interview process is symmetrical -- I will not be spending more time in the interview process than people at the company. Whiteboard interviews are personally a red flag, since they're a sign that the company doesn't quite know what they're looking for in an applicant, but they're not exploitative the way takeaway homework is.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#199

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

alistairSH wrote: post #185
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t know of any other industry who hires senior people the way we do outside of performing arts. Because nearly every other industry is credentialed, so proving your 3-8 years of university grind is enough to get hired. Outside of tech, any other white collar interview is basically a 15-60 minute coffee or lunch with the boss (the culture fit interview basically) and then, unless you showed some red flags, you g…

How do companies hire paralegals, staff accountants (no CPA), various business consultants, HR, marketing staff, etc? In my entire peer group, only the software engineers have ridiculously time-consuming take-home tests.

>How do companies hire paralegals, staff accountants (no CPA), various business consultants, HR, marketing staff, etc?

Easy. They have a 15-30 minute chat over coffee or lunch, then they get hired.

Re: Tell HN: Unpaid home assignments are not ok

#200

Post by selimthegrim »

hotpotamus wrote: post #192
sarchertech wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they aren’t. Most working engineers don’t even bother with a PE. Think of all the marketing, sales, Human Resources jobs etc…

To me, PE means either pulmonary embolism or private equity (and I have a hard time trying to decide with one I'd rather have to deal with). Which is to say there are too many initialisms these days and I have no idea what you mean even in context, and I wish people would take the time to write out words.

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