On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class • Hacker News Board

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#111

Post by zcw100 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 11:54 AM UTC

hnaccount141 wrote: post #17

legitster wrote: post #7

I can relate to a lot of this, I was pretty stinking poor growing up. Now I make good money. (I still buy used tires from shady lots tho). But even now that I'm making good money, it boggles my mind how richer everyone else still seems. Like, how do so many young people have a favorite island in Hawaii? How is everyone out there affording new cars? People actually picked a college major without thinking about cost? O…

> Like, how do so many young people have a favorite island in Hawaii? How is everyone out there affording new cars? The reality is that oftentimes they simply can't, at least according to a responsible definition of "afford". All we see from the outside is the brand new Jeep, we don't see the fact that they're underwater on a 72 month loan with 6% interest. The average car loan term in 2019 was 69 months, that's insa…

I’m not sure the, everyone is in debt, is a good explanation for what you’re seeing. Everyone is in debt but that doesn’t allow you to sustainably live beyond your means. Sure you’ll get a small bump on your way to maxing out your credit cards but it won’t take long to reach your limit and then you’re worse off than you were before.

I think a better explanation is small inheritances. I think there are a number of people that have come into small inheritances. Enough to change their situation but not enough to move out of their social circles and because of that they’re very unlikely to let you know.

Say someone gets $500k from their uncle. Not a small sum of money but not a gigantic inheritance. You’re not going to immediately retire if you get that but you might pay off your mortgage. Now ask yourself what your lifestyle might be if someone came along and wiped out your mortgage. Now that Jeep or Audi might not be such a big deal and your looking at them thinking, “how on earth can they be doing that? They’re working the same job I am and I can’t do that”.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#112

Post by icedchai » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:28 PM UTC

RexM wrote: post #102

icedchai wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling your house takes time. In a bad economy, it could take a lot of time. Knowing your "liquid" net worth has some value.

But if you own your home you don’t have to worry about paying for a place to live (taxes aside.) I do see how knowing what your liquid net worth is has some value, but knowing your expenses has value, too.

True. Taxes and utilities do add up. Some neighborhoods also have HOA fees. A lot of people are living month-to-month on their paycheck, so expense is key.

Note: I own my home outright. I bought it in 2000, before the real estate bubble really took off, had a 15 year mortgage, paid it off early.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#113

Post by drpgq » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

draw_down wrote: post #2

> Middle-class-or-better people don’t like to talk about money... You realize you are talking to people who have a problem you can’t solve for them. This extends to not wanting to discuss salary with coworkers, by the way. The common conception is the bosses want to hold us down so they tell us not to talk about it. But I’ve been in multiple situations where I didn’t want to. I knew I was making more, and it wasn’t b…

I wonder if when I leave a job if I should message some co-workers what my salary history was.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#114

Post by vintermann » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 1:57 PM UTC

I can't say my experience mirrors this. Yes, I spend more on things like food, but not so much that it makes a dent. I can still save far more than I ever could back then.

Getting decent pay is just so much more efficient at making you economically safe than any kind of clever frugality is. Maybe if you could figure out a way to live without paying rent or mortgage interest, it'd be worth it, but otherwise it's the income side that matters more than the expenses side.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#115

Post by zozbot234 » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #58

legitster wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, it can be all over the place. On one hand, the first time I had a corporate job I certainly felt very naked being the one guy with a ratty car in the parking lot. On the other hand, you might have a CEO proudly drinks cheap beer and wears Kirkland Signature workboots to the office.

You definitely won’t have a CEO who proudly drives a ratty car. Sorry but it doesn’t go both ways.

> You definitely won’t have a CEO who proudly drives a ratty car.

Seriously? It happens all the time. Lots of very wealthy people get into the habit of penny-pinching to the extreme and "hiding" their wealth from everyone else.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#116

Post by sershe » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #94

sershe wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An average American lives unbelievably rich, safe life by the standards of pretty much any major country that has ever existed or currently exists (yes, including Europe - see e.g. disposable income, debt etc. here - https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm ). An average American is indeed saddled by a healthcare system distorted by misaligned incentives (tax-free benefits), tons of regulation and go…

America is a rich country. But the overwhelming bulk of its property and income is concentrated in the upper class. They drop crumbs for the rest of us. Sweden, e.g., is much less rich, but its regular citizens get a decent cut. So they are mostly a little better off than the typical American. That word "whining" is an effective trick. It distracts attention very conveniently.

If you look at the actual data, it's simply not true. Per capita disposable income in the US is 40% higher than Sweden. Housing spending as % of income is somewhat higher in Sweden. Household debt as %% of income is twice as high in Sweden (I was actually surprised by that). Net worth in Sweden is somewhat lower as %% of income, I guess it would make it a bit higher in absolute terms?

Tax burden in Sweden is much higher for middle class. I mean it looks like my wife, who is a school teacher in the US, would be taxed at marginal 53%, not counting the VAT of 25%, that is insane. That sure is a "decent cut", just not the right way ;)

What exactly does this "decent cut" translate into?

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#117

Post by legitster » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

vanadium wrote: post #108

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely won’t have a CEO who proudly drives a ratty car. Sorry but it doesn’t go both ways.

Let’s de-escalate it to relative car value to income then, in which case I’d say Warren Buffett is a good candidate. While you might not consider it ratty, it’s still pretty grounded and emblematic of frugality, all things considered.

> While you might not consider it ratty

At one point, he did have a car he got on discount because of hail damage. That's pretty ratty in my opinion.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#118

Post by samhw » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:22 PM UTC

Feritioyyyyy wrote: post #109

commandlinefan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't help but do the same thing when I was reading the article, in the opposite direction: "wait - you had a wife and you were poor?" When I was young and my income was low or nonexistent, it seemed like women could smell the poverty on me and I couldn't even get close to them. It was like trying to sneak up on a grazing gazelle - they'd hear me coming and just sprint to a safe distance. The more money I made,…

Oh boy... My wife wouldn't and no woman in a relationship I know would care about this either. Love is not based on income. That sounds tremendous depressing. A partnership is teamwork not two doing different things.

So what if it’s tremendous[ly] depressing? It’s depressing that basically no animal dies of old age in the wild. It’s still the reality.

Your comment doesn’t really seem to be trying to substantiate your claim, so much as it’s trying to paint a picture of how depressing his description of reality is. From that, I’m pretty confident you’re trying to define some ideal definition of love – which, if he’s correct, would not be ‘wrong’ but would simply not be common in the real world – while he’s trying to factually describe the motivations for human relationships in the real world.

(I’m not sure I quite agree with his gloomy picture, but I don’t think you are even coming at it with the same intent.)

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#119

Post by hackerfromthefu » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #58

legitster wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, it can be all over the place. On one hand, the first time I had a corporate job I certainly felt very naked being the one guy with a ratty car in the parking lot. On the other hand, you might have a CEO proudly drinks cheap beer and wears Kirkland Signature workboots to the office.

You definitely won’t have a CEO who proudly drives a ratty car. Sorry but it doesn’t go both ways.

I had a CEO who drove an old toyota corolla. Also played music gigs for fun. His company was long term, and eventually IPOd. Not flash in the pan startup VC stuff but SAAS erp for essential industry.

Re: On Being Rich-ish: Lessons I learned becoming suddenly middle-class

#120

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Aug 05, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #73

ncmncm wrote: post #61

The hell of it is, he still isn't middle class. The US doesn't even have a middle class anymore. He is just no longer at the very bottom of the underclass. He is now mid-lower lower class. It is impossibly hard for most people not in the upper class in the US to conceive of just how impossibly far they are from that upper class. $100k/yr? Lower class. $200k/yr? Still lower class: you still can't afford to send your k…

> Still lower class: you still can't afford to send your kids through college, and still make your house and car payments, replacing your car every year or two. Yes, that was what middle-class people used to do. This is a complete delusion designed to justify affluent people asserting they’re “middle class.” Americans never lived like that. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, most people didn’t even go to college. They live…

I think lower taxation on the upper and upper middle care is only a portion of the cause.

The majority of the difference is we spend so much more on healthcare than other countries. If we spent what other countries did on healthcare we'd be pretty close to being able to afford Medicare for all with current government spending on healthcare.