Abolish the PhD (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#141

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

thevania wrote: post #51

arpa wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get out more. Elsewhere in the EU PhD is not paid, at best you're doing lectures all while without any paid time off, sick leave, and if you want a good laugh from the universities' administrators, bring maternal leave up. The experience of my partner left me with a very bleak and medieval picture of the academia. And of course, if you're getting a research grant through the university, it comes as a loan of ~60-90k€…

sure if you can not handle it you tend to hate it i know a lot of guys that were not able to finish phd or even basic bachelor degrees because they were too "proud" to adapt and believed they do not need to adapt and can live a good enough life without it personally, in my organization i would never hire a person without at least a MSc for a non-research position and without a Phd for a research position - because to…

[deleted]

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#142

Post by tpoacher » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #84

shioyama wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This a thousand times. > And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. Um, hello. This happens in industry as well. It's called training, learning, whatever. It's an investment on the part of the company in the future of its workforce. Why should academia expect to only pay employees wh…

You have a point, but graduate students are actually paid a salary, unlike what you suggested.

not the case in many countries (the UK being one of them)

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#143

Post by hoosieree » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

363849473754 wrote: post #14

Does anyone have experience with being a non-traditional PhD student and doing your PhD later in life? I worked a bit and want to return for a PhD in CS. I took some courses at a nearby (and good) institution and did well (for fun). I want to continue taking graduate courses and and get involved in research before I apply for PhD programs (since I been out of school for a while). Curious to hear from older students t…

I currently am both a full-time employee and a full-time PhD student at a US university. Recently I finished my coursework and passed a qualifying exam so now I"m a "PhD Candidate" which means I can focus more on research.

It's been very difficult to do both school and work simultaneously. It helps that I enjoy learning the material and have had some truly outstanding professors. The biggest challenges for me have been (in no particular order):

- Group assignments with unmotivated or unethical students. In 3 separate instances, I caught a student in my group attempting to submit blatantly plagiarized work (simple GitHub search to find the duplicate code). Other times I would be the only person to write any code that actually worked.

- Seemingly pointless bureaucracy, like a form certifying that I completed all my coursework which needs approval by 5 people and a minimum of 4 weeks processing time. As far as I can tell, this form only asserts that I passed >90 hours of coursework, which is already in my transcript.

- Not enough one-on-one time with my advisor.

- Not enough guidance on the publishing process. I have collected anecdotes from some professors and snippets from my advisor, but I would have appreciated some formal training. I would have gladly swapped some independent study credit hours for a course about academic publishing.

On the plus side:

- COVID restrictions forcing classes to be online really helped with logistics.

- I used to have imposter syndrome pretty bad. But comparing my work to that of other PhD students across a broad range of topics has proven to me that I'm at least better than average for this university. Maybe I am a big fish in a small pond, but some of those peers have FAANG jobs now. So maybe I'm actually getting pretty good at this stuff.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#144

Post by adamsmith143 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #138

adamsmith143 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple, much of Europe has already figured this out. Pay PhD students appropriately, and give them full benefits. The idea that they are only contributing work worth the equivalent of minimum wage in the US is completely absurd and ensures only students with particularly forgiving attitudes or ones from wealthy backgrounds can reasonably complete PhDs here. I recently saw PhD stipends at UNC Chapel Hill advertis…

> It's simple, much of Europe has already figured this out. Pay PhD students appropriately, and give them full benefits. The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per…

>The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less.

This is debatable.

>PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits.

This is completely false. The absolute highest stipends in the US are at places like Stanford or Columbia and even then only reach something like 45000 per year and both Palo Alto and NYC are much more expensive than Amsterdam. They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA.

>You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per year.

With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends.

>At UNC, minimums are: bio $33k, chemistry $28k, CS $25k. And North Carolina is far cheaper than Amsterdam.

Also false. I encourage you to do the math for yourself but Amsterdam is about as expensive to live in as Chapel Hill.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

Also the stipends in Netherlands are more or less the same across the country so at Utrecht, Maastricht, Leiden etc. which are much less expensive than Amsterdam.

>PhDs in the EU live often in much more expensive areas and make less than PhD students in the US.

This just isn't supported by the data.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#145

Post by galleywest200 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

wodenokoto wrote: post #24

My understanding is that US system places Ph.D. and masters degree in the same course. In Europe and Asia you take a bachelor, then a masters degree. Both as university students. A masters opens the door to apply for a Ph.D. In Denmark, for example, a Ph.D. is commonly a job position, with a limited contract. Union governed, pay, pension. You apply for a position when one is announced, just like many other jobs. Lite…

In the US you can apply for a PhD path or apply for a masters. The benefit of going straight to PhD path is that it is free (read: zero dollars) if you are in the STEM field. Masters are out of your pocket, unfortunately.

I made the mistake of applying for a PhD track and failed to get in, as those are super competitive. Now I feel as if I cannot ask for new letters of recommendation to try to get a masters. Its a shame, as I would love to go to graduate school one day.

I was offered the chance to be a non-matriculated student with the option of becoming a regular student after 1 quarter, but that is expensive. Once I pay off my car I think I will try to take that offer.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#146

Post by adamsmith143 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #120

adamsmith143 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do you want to work for someone else, on their hours, answerable to them, doing their research and teaching their classes, instead of working on your own research? Did you actually do a PhD? You ought to know that you are completely beholden to your advisor, what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc. As an employee you actually have rights, benefits…

> what they want you to work on, what papers they want you to write, the classes they want you to take etc This isn't my experience. A PhD is supposed to be your own research, not your advisor's.

Anecdotes aren't very useful but in my department it was pretty clear that most of your work was going to be derivative of your advisors at least tangentially if not directly.

Also I think the article and most of the discussion so far has been around experiences in the US' PhD system so I'm not sure experience in the UK is equivalent.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#147

Post by galleywest200 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #55

>After all, having a shitty job is a privilege! The abovelinked article tells it with a straight face: “Those who stick with a career in science do so because, despite the relatively poor pay, long hours and lack of security, it is all we want to do.” This is an inherent, intractable problem with many careers that are also passions. There will always be a contingent of people willing to put in extremely long, brutal…

> As an extreme example, consider Olympic athletes. Often for little-to-no pay

I was under the impression these athletes get lucrative sponsorships from private companies, at least for the more high-profile sports.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#148

Post by light_hue_1 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

adamsmith143 wrote: post #144

light_hue_1 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's simple, much of Europe has already figured this out. Pay PhD students appropriately, and give them full benefits. The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per…

>The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. This is debatable. >PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. This is completely false. The absolute highest stipends in the US are at places like Stanford or Columbia and even then only reach something like 45000 per year and both Palo Alto and NYC a…

>> PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits.

> This is completely false.

Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say:

> With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends.

Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks.

> The absolute highest stipends in the US ... They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA.

I'm at one of these places. In terms of benefits, we far outstrip the EU. The flexibility we have to spend money on travel, equipment, perks, is incomparable.

But let's take a step back. You started by saying that this problem is solved in the EU and now you backtracked to arguing about +/-10% salary. Big deal.

The EU is expensive, it pays poorly. You want to argue the US is a little worse. But your statement that this problem is solved in the EU couldn't be further from the truth.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#149

Post by jltsiren » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #148

adamsmith143 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. This is debatable. >PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. This is completely false. The absolute highest stipends in the US are at places like Stanford or Columbia and even then only reach something like 45000 per year and both Palo Alto and NYC a…

>> PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. > This is completely false. Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: > With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vac…

> Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks.

Conference travel and short-term research visits have nothing to do with vacation. They are just business travel, where you rarely have enough time to do anything interesting.

I did my PhD in Finland and finished about a decade ago. During that time, I made business trips to Australia, Chile, Colombia, Denmark (x2), Germany, Italy (x2), Turkey, and the US. I also had the time and money to travel on my own, and I visited Iceland (x2), Kenya, Morocco, Nepal, Peru, and Tanzania, in addition to 6 or 7 trips to various European countries. Some of my friends didn't travel as much, but they bought a house, because doing a PhD was a middle-class job.

Also, this branch of the discussion was not about the EU but about "much of Europe". That usually refers to the West/North European countries that remained free after WW2. Large parts of Europe suffered under communism and other totalitarian governments during the Cold War, and their standard of living is still lower because of that.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#150

Post by klyrs » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 6:52 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

_8j50 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can go from undergrad to phd???

Doing a masters in between is usually I'd say a big waste of time and very inadvisable. If you're strong enough to start your PhD then just start it. And to literally answer your question - you don't need any kind of prior degree at all to start a PhD. I was recently investigating getting a gifted engineer onto a PhD programme without an undergraduate, and it was possible.

This depends on both the field of study and the country in question. In the US, for example, nobody gets a masters in math except as a terminal degree (sometimes, perhaps usually, a masters is a failed PhD attempt). In Canada, it is relatively rare for somebody to skip straight from undergrad to a math PhD.