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Abolish the PhD (2016)

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Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#41

Post by arpa »

thevania wrote: post #18

its just one persons opinion based on his experiences, I do not share his views because my experience was completely different, for the sake of having a different perspective let me share how it went for me: I did my PhD (and an MSc before that) in EU, as a PhD I was paid an above average salary and it even provided me enough time to work as a consultant in parallel where I was able to get a few patents - which also…

Get out more. Elsewhere in the EU PhD is not paid, at best you're doing lectures all while without any paid time off, sick leave, and if you want a good laugh from the universities' administrators, bring maternal leave up. The experience of my partner left me with a very bleak and medieval picture of the academia. And of course, if you're getting a research grant through the university, it comes as a loan of ~60-90k€ - you're expected to pay it back if your research is not as successful and, for example, you don't manage to publish enough articles in time.

Academia is a fucking joke.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#42

Post by mr_mitm »

Topolomancer wrote: post #33

There are some very good points in the article. As someone whose adviser proved troublesome when it came to graduating and letter writing (a horrible practice as well!), I second most of the points made. At the same time, there's also reason for cautious optimism. In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid (mind you, it's an academic salary, which is not a lot but a first year PhD student with a full t…

> In the German system, for instance, PhD students are paid

Sometimes paid. In engineering and CS you might be able to land a full position, but for example in physics you can call yourself lucky if you get a half position -- with the same amount of work, obviously. Many must apply for scholarships, which is comparable to a half position but has the downside of not paying into unemployment insurance.

In the humanities, my understanding is that PhD students are not paid at all.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#43

Post by ok_dad »

chrisseaton wrote: post #29
ok_dad wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.

> Grad students are worked like dogs They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work. > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor Is that the goal?

> they work for themselves

They work for professors who sometimes care that they eventually get a PhD and sometimes don’t care if they live or die.

I love hard work, but not if it’s paired with a toxic environment where I’m going to be working like a slave for a decade and maybe will never achieve anything close to the impact I thought I’d have.

> goal?

Not sure, but if not what is the goal? To be in a research lab forever as an assistant or to do your own research? The latter requires power and position, like a professorship.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#44

Post by avian »

363849473754 wrote: post #14

Does anyone have experience with being a non-traditional PhD student and doing your PhD later in life? I worked a bit and want to return for a PhD in CS. I took some courses at a nearby (and good) institution and did well (for fun). I want to continue taking graduate courses and and get involved in research before I apply for PhD programs (since I been out of school for a while). Curious to hear from older students t…

I started my PhD in my mid-30s. I was working as engineer support staff at a science institute at the time and was encouraged to enroll in a PhD course. I dropped out of the course and academia all together after 5 years for various reasons, among others being burned out and developing health problems. I would describe myself similar to you, loving to do research and working on hard problems, but that's just a part of getting a PhD.

I strongly suggest reading the "How to Survive your Doctorate" [1]. It goes into social, financial and office politics side of doing a PhD. You might think that it's something you can avoid, but it's not. It's a book I wish I've read before going down the PhD route.

[1] https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Jane-Matthiesen/dp/0335234445

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#45

Post by chrisseaton »

ok_dad wrote: post #43
chrisseaton wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grad students are worked like dogs They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work. > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor Is that the goal?

> they work for themselves They work for professors who sometimes care that they eventually get a PhD and sometimes don’t care if they live or die. I love hard work, but not if it’s paired with a toxic environment where I’m going to be working like a slave for a decade and maybe will never achieve anything close to the impact I thought I’d have. > goal? Not sure, but if not what is the goal? To be in a research lab f…

> They work for professors

I think we need to break this mindset. It’s your research. Not your professors. By the end, your professor probably doesn’t really understand it anymore because you’ve pushed the envelope beyond them.

> but if not what is the goal?

Go into industry.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#46

Post by osrec »

anonimamente wrote: post #36

That we only need to abolish PhD programs is like shaving the foam off the top of a spoiled bear and thinking that fixes it. The whole premise of college has been rendered obsolete by the Internet a long time ago. What does a University provide that you cannot find online? You are paying to read textbooks and listen to someone quote from those textbooks. Do you need someone to tell you that you must study X for N hou…

I wholeheartedly agree. In the UK, I find it especially irritating that the biggest selling point touted for going to university by a lot of people is the "social experience", not the education!

Either way, most of the education seems to happen when you're locked away in your dorm room. I could have honestly done that studying anywhere with a bit of peace and quiet.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#47

Post by mr_mitm »

_8j50 wrote: post #20
Fomite wrote: post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

You can go from undergrad to phd???

In the US you can enroll in either a master's program or a PhD program after obtaining the bachelor degree. Both count as graduate programs. The PhD program then usually takes as long as getting a masters degree and then a PhD in Germany, for example. PhD programs in natural sciences in Germany take around 3 years (can be longer), but the PhD program in the US for bachelor graduates takes 5-6 years.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#48

Post by pca006132 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #30
light_hue_1 wrote: post #8

This identifies a problem: PhD students are treated badly both in terms of working conditions and pay. The solution isn't to abolish the PhD. It's to have better working conditions and pay! PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them. They should have unions (I have been both at union and non-union shops, you want to be in a graduate student union). PhD students should benefit from th…

> PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them. I don't understand this point of view. Why do you want to be an employee, working for someone else, with all the obligations and restrictions of that... rather than a student free to pursue what you want and to do it in your own way. If you want to be an employee and to be told what to research, then become a research engineer, don't do a…

I guess he means with protections provided by employment laws, as there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students? I think extending employment laws to cover graduate students or setup additional laws might be more appropriate.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#49

Post by sigmoid10 »

anonimamente wrote: post #36

That we only need to abolish PhD programs is like shaving the foam off the top of a spoiled bear and thinking that fixes it. The whole premise of college has been rendered obsolete by the Internet a long time ago. What does a University provide that you cannot find online? You are paying to read textbooks and listen to someone quote from those textbooks. Do you need someone to tell you that you must study X for N hou…

To be fair, while this works great for certain subjects like computer science, there are things you can't learn online. Medicine, chemistry, biology, experimental physics and most of engineering require labs and tools and a level of personal oversight or interaction that's just not accessible to young people otherwise. You might be able to get rid of lecture halls in the long run, but you'll never get rid of labs.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#50

Post by chrisseaton »

pca006132 wrote: post #48
chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them. I don't understand this point of view. Why do you want to be an employee, working for someone else, with all the obligations and restrictions of that... rather than a student free to pursue what you want and to do it in your own way. If you want to be an employee and to be told what to research, then become a research engineer, don't do a…

I guess he means with protections provided by employment laws, as there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students? I think extending employment laws to cover graduate students or setup additional laws might be more appropriate.

> there are no laws mandating protections such as annual leave for students?

Did I have an unusually permissive advisor or something? My advisor didn’t control my leave - it was up to me to manage my time.

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