Abolish the PhD (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#21

Post by m000 » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:06 AM UTC

No, we don't need to abolish the PhD. We need to regulate and modernize it. Some of the perks of STEM PhD students in the Netherlands (and I would guess elsewhere in Europe):

* Full employee status, including pension benefits. You're still underpaid of course, compared to market rates. This also addresses issues like parental leave and holidays.

* PhD contracts are fixed-term, 1+3 years. If you are given a third fixed-term contract, you are entitled (by law) to convert your contract to indefinite term. This makes it hard to keep around students for longer than needed as cheap workers.

* The typical format for a STEM PhD thesis is "story chapter" + peer-reviewed publications in verbatim. Which means you can spend more time on research instead on an exercise in futility.

* PhD defense is purely ceremonial and timed. OFC, you can still be made look like a fool.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#22

Post by Daub » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:09 AM UTC

In art and design, the requirement for lecturers to have PhD has become the norm. But this in no way guarantees quality. At my last uni, a prof had earned his doctorate with a PhD the title of which was something like: 'The Duality of Asia. Design and Art.' Neither he nor his supervisor ever noticed the problem with this.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#23

Post by ImprobableTruth » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:12 AM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #8

This identifies a problem: PhD students are treated badly both in terms of working conditions and pay. The solution isn't to abolish the PhD. It's to have better working conditions and pay! PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them. They should have unions (I have been both at union and non-union shops, you want to be in a graduate student union). PhD students should benefit from th…

>The demand for PhDs in industry is huge across many fields

... is it really? CS is as far as I know one of the fields with the highest demand and even there the jobs that actually need a phd are pretty rare. As far as I can tell it's possibly only ML where there's a good amount of jobs that essentially require a phd.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#24

Post by wodenokoto » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:15 AM UTC

My understanding is that US system places Ph.D. and masters degree in the same course.

In Europe and Asia you take a bachelor, then a masters degree. Both as university students. A masters opens the door to apply for a Ph.D.

In Denmark, for example, a Ph.D. is commonly a job position, with a limited contract. Union governed, pay, pension. You apply for a position when one is announced, just like many other jobs. Literally you see things like: "University X, department Y are looking to fill a Ph.D. position in Z. Applicants must have these qualifications ..."

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#25

Post by LudwigNagasena » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:15 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #20

Fomite wrote: post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

You can go from undergrad to phd???

In the US PhD often includes master's.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#26

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:20 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #20

Fomite wrote: post #6

"Problem is, “graduate students” are not students. They are workers." Graduate students are both . My students benefit heavily from me not necessarily treating them to the same standards as I would treat a full time research employee. And while they are the primary workhorses of research, there are large swathes of their graduate student careers where they are not particularly (or often negatively) productive. I will…

You can go from undergrad to phd???

Doing a masters in between is usually I'd say a big waste of time and very inadvisable. If you're strong enough to start your PhD then just start it.

And to literally answer your question - you don't need any kind of prior degree at all to start a PhD. I was recently investigating getting a gifted engineer onto a PhD programme without an undergraduate, and it was possible.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#27

Post by ok_dad » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:21 AM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #15

> Mind you: this is not part-time work, or even standard 9-to-5. It is hard, continuous work, with weekends and nights spent in the lab or writing research papers (see e.g. here). Journals advise graduate students to work most weekends and long hours, because that’s how you succeed. Or could the “because” be that you find the work deeply intellectually stimulating to the point where it’s hard to step away? I guess ma…

“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#28

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:23 AM UTC

363849473754 wrote: post #14

Does anyone have experience with being a non-traditional PhD student and doing your PhD later in life? I worked a bit and want to return for a PhD in CS. I took some courses at a nearby (and good) institution and did well (for fun). I want to continue taking graduate courses and and get involved in research before I apply for PhD programs (since I been out of school for a while). Curious to hear from older students t…

I worked for four years and then went back to do a PhD, so I did it married, with a mortgage, and a baby, etc. was stressful in some ways but in others I was more mature so more self-aware and relaxed. I didn't have a problem getting a job afterward.

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#29

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:23 AM UTC

ok_dad wrote: post #27

hyperbovine wrote: post #15

> Mind you: this is not part-time work, or even standard 9-to-5. It is hard, continuous work, with weekends and nights spent in the lab or writing research papers (see e.g. here). Journals advise graduate students to work most weekends and long hours, because that’s how you succeed. Or could the “because” be that you find the work deeply intellectually stimulating to the point where it’s hard to step away? I guess ma…

“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.

> Grad students are worked like dogs

They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work.

> and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor

Is that the goal?

Re: Abolish the PhD (2016)

#30

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Aug 03, 2022, 10:25 AM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #8

This identifies a problem: PhD students are treated badly both in terms of working conditions and pay. The solution isn't to abolish the PhD. It's to have better working conditions and pay! PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them. They should have unions (I have been both at union and non-union shops, you want to be in a graduate student union). PhD students should benefit from th…

> PhD students should be employees with all of the protections this gives them.

I don't understand this point of view. Why do you want to be an employee, working for someone else, with all the obligations and restrictions of that... rather than a student free to pursue what you want and to do it in your own way.

If you want to be an employee and to be told what to research, then become a research engineer, don't do a PhD. That's an existing research career that's open to you.