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Tech Compensation in Europe

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Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#121

Post by jacquesm »

aantix wrote: post #69
shmatt wrote: post #34

This is why I dislike the fight against location based pay in the U.S. People are heated about how they add the same value whether in SF or Kentucky, but forget there are people even more valuable than them getting paid significantly less. If you are fighting against location based pay, you should be asking your employer to pay all employees on similar teams worldwide the same

I am hyper aware of my strengths, my accolades, my career accomplishments. I have no idea what "employees on similar teams" bring to the table. I am not going to negotiate on their behalf. I am productive. I'll make an immediate impact on your team. I've added millions of dollars in value. I've done international product launches. We can walk through my body of work from the past two decades in detail if you'd like.…

> I negotiate for myself and my family.

No, you don't. I get where you are coming from but you are not just negotiating for yourself and your family, others have fractionally negotiated on your behalf in the past and have set expectations that you are going to have to meet or exceed to be able to get hired and the same goes for those that come after you.

You do not operate in some kind of idealized vacuum, you are part of a market, whether you like it or not doesn't really matter. Market transparency benefits you too.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#122

Post by Jyaif »

piaste wrote: post #111
Jyaif wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. At Thales (big french tech company), AFAIU there's essentially no way of reaching 60kEUR/year without becoming a manager. And even then, reaching 100K requires climbing a lot more levels.

> At Thales (big french tech company), AFAIU there's essentially no way of reaching 60kEUR/year without becoming a manager. You're probably thinking of after-tax salary, also known as take-home pay (5k/month in your example). Salary is almost always discussed in pre-tax terms, because two employees with the same salary can get very different tax deductions based on their family situation etc. This website is no excep…

> You're probably thinking of after-tax salary

I am not.

> Salary is almost always discussed in pre-tax terms

That's correct.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#123

Post by baron816 »

shmatt wrote: post #34

This is why I dislike the fight against location based pay in the U.S. People are heated about how they add the same value whether in SF or Kentucky, but forget there are people even more valuable than them getting paid significantly less. If you are fighting against location based pay, you should be asking your employer to pay all employees on similar teams worldwide the same

Companies don’t exist for the sole benefit of their employees, unless they’re a coop. Capitalism doesn’t allocate resources based on “hard work” or some sort of social notion who “deserves” to be paid what. You get paid what the market determines you should be paid.

A company that pays everyone the same thing is overpaying a lot of people. That’s great for those employees, but it probably means the company wasn’t able to hire as many people as it otherwise would have. Either that, or the company has become less competitive and runs the risk of failing.

It’s perfectly fair to argue that you should be paid the same as all the other employees at company X, and it might work as a negotiating tactic. But if your options are $150k at global company X where SF employees at the company are making $300k, or $75k at local company Y, what would you choose? Company X probably knows what your options are.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#124

Post by hiq »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #25
dijit wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I totally forgot the non-EU ones. Zurich IME is more in line with Californian salaries though.

While being more expensive than California.

You can't compare Zurich with California. According to Wikipedia, California is 10 times as big as Switzerland.

Rent is usually the biggest part of expenses and the prices are crazier in the SV than in Zurich (the city).

Maybe you were not referring to the SV, but then you have places 30min away (by train) from Zurich that are also way cheaper.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#125

Post by ghaff »

randyrand wrote: post #83
akmarinov wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your argument that people in different timezones and cultures doing the same job with the same results should be paid less because of it?

for most companies, time zones and the added 200-400ms of audio delay are a big deal.

Time zones past a certain point perhaps. I routinely deal with a 5-6 hour spread (eastern US to Europe) and it works pretty well. No particular audio issues either--at least any more than video calls generally. I would agree that more than about 6 hours starts getting harder unless the people in one of the zones really shift their workday.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#126

Post by ksdnjweusdnkl21 »

akmarinov wrote: post #53
pydry wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are larger legal differences across countries that mostly dont apply between SF and kentucky. & timezone and language/cultural differences too that are not immaterial.

Is your argument that people in different timezones and cultures doing the same job with the same results should be paid less because of it?

I think his argument is that in general their results would be worse because of the timezone and culture difference, thus earning less on average. I think there might be an element of truth there, but probably not enough to explain the entire difference, only a small part of it.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#127

Post by zuhayeer »

ksdnjweusdnkl21 wrote: post #118
__derek__ wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why build something new rather than encourage folks to submit on levels.fyi? There's already data for EU-based roles.[1] [1]: https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&c...

I welcome any competition on the space. Edited out: Levels is just full of dark patterns.

Hey, one of the founders of Levels.fyi here, anything in particular that you didn’t like that we can look into?

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#128

Post by dixie_land »

dominotw wrote: post #81
paxys wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what has been happening frequently in our company's Slack channels. Highly paid Bay Area developer moves to elsewhere in the US and complains that they got a pay cut. Developer in low cost US city agrees and says they should be paid Bay Area salaries as well. Canadian developer points out that they get paid lower than anyone in the US despite having very high costs of living. Someone else says think o…

> we are very happy with our salaries, I don't understand why this could be. Speaking up publicly is definitely a cultural no no in india. so maybe that's why?

This is the ugly truth people in first world do not understand or willfully ignore: someone in a third world country would kill for what you consider as table scraps. The low cost of labor IS their competitive advantage.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#129

Post by paxys »

dominotw wrote: post #81
paxys wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what has been happening frequently in our company's Slack channels. Highly paid Bay Area developer moves to elsewhere in the US and complains that they got a pay cut. Developer in low cost US city agrees and says they should be paid Bay Area salaries as well. Canadian developer points out that they get paid lower than anyone in the US despite having very high costs of living. Someone else says think o…

> we are very happy with our salaries, I don't understand why this could be. Speaking up publicly is definitely a cultural no no in india. so maybe that's why?

Here's a data point that may help put things into perspective – one of our employees in India lives in what would be considered a mansion when compared to silicon valley housing. His family has the best private medical insurance, and his kids go to the top private school in the city. He employs a driver to take him to work everyday. He has multiple full-time household help. His disposable income puts him in or close to the top 1% in India. And he does all this on a single staff+ level engineer's salary (his wife doesn't work).

Is it too hard to see why he would be satisfied with his work conditions?

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#130

Post by leipert »

commandlinefan wrote: post #95
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in Europe, employers don't have to pay for insurance They do in some cases. In France and Austria (I think Germany and others too), the gross salary you negociate to get is actually even higher for the employer as there is a tax the employer must pay on top of that to cover his side of the social contributions. I wish this would be more transparent. What you said applies to places like Denmark, Switzerland, where th…

That happens in America as well, and I don't think people are well aware of it - the employer is required to pay unemployment insurance on top of the salary they pay to each employee. If you collect unemployment, this is where that money comes from.

Usually employees in Germany need to calculate with 1.15 to 1.2x of the salary they negotiate with the employee. The employer needs to match social contributions (retirement, unemployment, health insurance)
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