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Tech Compensation in Europe

techpays.eu

81–90 of 171 posts

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#81
post #76
post #34

This is why I dislike the fight against location based pay in the U.S. People are heated about how they add the same value whether in SF or Kentucky, but forget there are people even more valuable than them getting paid significantly less. If you are fighting against location based pay, you should be asking your employer to pay all employees on similar teams worldwide the same

This is exactly what has been happening frequently in our company's Slack channels. Highly paid Bay Area developer moves to elsewhere in the US and complains that they got a pay cut. Developer in low cost US city agrees and says they should be paid Bay Area salaries as well. Canadian developer points out that they get paid lower than anyone in the US despite having very high costs of living. Someone else says think o…

> we are very happy with our salaries,

I don't understand why this could be. Speaking up publicly is definitely a cultural no no in india. so maybe that's why?

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#82
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you tell your Kentucky-based employees at that point? "Look, 30 cents a week is our business model. You don't see Harbaglarb in Racetothebottomland complaining,"??

Well yeah, if Harbaglarb does the same job as the Kentucky person why shouldn’t they be paid the same?

From a rational economic standpoint, they should, but that isn't the fight that the anti-Harbaglarbers wanted; there's an assumption that there's culture in common between SF and KY that gets lost somewhere overseas to the cheapest bidder.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#83
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are larger legal differences across countries that mostly dont apply between SF and kentucky. & timezone and language/cultural differences too that are not immaterial.

Is your argument that people in different timezones and cultures doing the same job with the same results should be paid less because of it?

for most companies, time zones and the added 200-400ms of audio delay are a big deal.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#84

Hi! I'm building this website, but I did not submit this show HN here. I don't think the site is ready for such a submission, it's currently in alpha - very clearly marked. It's not even beta-ready yet! The data set so far is small - limited to a few countries - and we're working behind the scenes. There are also lots of known issues, and a few data issues. I'm hoping this site will help people in tech get a better s…

Why build something new rather than encourage folks to submit on levels.fyi? There's already data for EU-based roles.[1] [1]: https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&c...

An interesting question here, on Hacker News.

Why did Paul Graham build Hacker News rather than encourage the use of Digg? It already had submissions of similar types that Hacker News started with. I assume it was because things were missing off Digg that Hacker News built, and the two sites ended up serving different audiences in the end.

Why build something new rather than encourage using existing services?

Because many of us have this entrepreneurial sprit to build, and do it the way we think is a good approach, filling in for gaps on the market. Time and people then decides if it was worth it.

The most obvious answer: TechPays caters for countries not present on eg levels.fyi - see how there are no data points for eg Estonia, Hungary, Belgium etc.

Then, this site is built with an anonymous-first mindset and offers additional context on data points - like whether or not equity is liquid - which I’ve not seen before, and has localization like being able to search for The Randstad in the Netherlands.

While there is data on levels.fyi, I expect this site to get significantly more data for European countries as it’s the main focus of it. Eg it already the has the most data for the Netherlands across any data source online - more than 2,000 entries -, and I have not promoted the site, this came from running in stealth. Same with eg Hungary which just launched but it’s hard to fine any data on this country - and impossible to submit data on most similar sites for it.

https://techpays.com/europe/netherlands

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#85
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what has been happening frequently in our company's Slack channels. Highly paid Bay Area developer moves to elsewhere in the US and complains that they got a pay cut. Developer in low cost US city agrees and says they should be paid Bay Area salaries as well. Canadian developer points out that they get paid lower than anyone in the US despite having very high costs of living. Someone else says think o…

> we are very happy with our salaries, I don't understand why this could be. Speaking up publicly is definitely a cultural no no in india. so maybe that's why?

[deleted]

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#86

Hi! I'm building this website, but I did not submit this show HN here. I don't think the site is ready for such a submission, it's currently in alpha - very clearly marked. It's not even beta-ready yet! The data set so far is small - limited to a few countries - and we're working behind the scenes. There are also lots of known issues, and a few data issues. I'm hoping this site will help people in tech get a better s…

Hi Gergely, thanks for bringing salary transparency to the EU! Some of those numbers make me consider moving back ;) Since this is early stage here is something for your consideration: so far I'm not very keen on how many of these websites account for equity/RSU in the salary information. For example, during my first 4 years at FAANG, my salary increased 50% due to stock appreciation alone. But the I faced a cliff wh…

Thanks! This is a tricky one as you already pointed it out.

I’m voting for simplicity: capturing the number in the point of time, and also capturing whether the equity component has appreciated or depreciated.

My bet is that having the date of the submission plus data on whether this was a new offer plus the indicator of how the equity changed will give a good enough sense for the sake of using this data.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#87
post #69
post #34

This is why I dislike the fight against location based pay in the U.S. People are heated about how they add the same value whether in SF or Kentucky, but forget there are people even more valuable than them getting paid significantly less. If you are fighting against location based pay, you should be asking your employer to pay all employees on similar teams worldwide the same

I am hyper aware of my strengths, my accolades, my career accomplishments. I have no idea what "employees on similar teams" bring to the table. I am not going to negotiate on their behalf. I am productive. I'll make an immediate impact on your team. I've added millions of dollars in value. I've done international product launches. We can walk through my body of work from the past two decades in detail if you'd like.…

Would you consider moving to a lower cost of living area (country perhaps) to compete with someone with comparable qualifications who did not require the same pay since they live in a lower cost of living country?

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#88
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct for the first number (181k to 100k), but not the second one, as the income tax is calculated by brackets defined in adavance[1]. A single person with no family winning 100k would have to pay 23k, leaving them with 77k. This is more than twice the average in France[2] and nearly thrice the median salary [3]. [1] : https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1419 [2] : https://www.insee.fr/fr/…

Thanks, I calculated 26.7k leaving 73k, so employee keeps just over 40% of what the employer pays. If you look at income tax in high income tax states the income tax looks similar, so its the payroll taxes and VAT that really is the difference between France and US.

I may be wrong, but I think there is also a cultural difference: everything here revolves around your gross income.

You'll hear "I win 100k a year", not "I win 181k a year". During hiring, you negotiate on the 100k number. Your contract mention this number. In the end, if there is a tax raise on the company part, they have to maintain your salary to the same level, even if it ends up costing them more than before.

That'd be also why US salaries seem so high from the outside, but are less impressive once your factor this in.

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#89
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are larger legal differences across countries that mostly dont apply between SF and kentucky. & timezone and language/cultural differences too that are not immaterial.

Is your argument that people in different timezones and cultures doing the same job with the same results should be paid less because of it?

Not the OP, but I think you bring up a great point and just wanted to chime in...

IMO cultural compatibility is valuable and worth paying a premium for, both within an employer's team, between an employer and their customers or their marketers, etc.

The support culture can be vastly different between cultures, as can design sense, time prioritization, team dynamics, etc. It's hard to work effectively with someone who barely speaks your language, doesn't get your jokes, doesn't like the same food, isn't used to communicating the same way -- whether in body language or slang or powerpoints, etc. (And it goes both ways -- I'm not just talking about American companies offshoring, but also Americans trying to work overseas, or people moving to/from China for opportunities, etc.)

But in an actually free market, where capital, labor, and customers are all free to pick and choose as they please, I doubt the difference would be as large as it is now, like 5x-10x difference for the same work just based on cultural compatibility. I've met plenty of foreign (to me) people who work harder and are just plain better at my job than I am, but get paid less because of the circumstances of their birth.

In a hypothetical world where people were free to work and live where they please, I don't know what an appropriate value of that "cultural fit premium" should be, maybe 20-30%? Certainly not orders of magnitude. But we don't have that hypothetical world, and our protectionist borders seem to be getting more defined by the day, not more blurred, as the West goes through a cultural backlash against globalization.

The dark side of "equal pay for equal work" is that Americans often enjoy higher pay and a higher quality of life for less work, sometimes MUCH less work, compared to their counterparts in international tech sweat-shops. We have hard-won labor protections that took decades of organizing to achieve, and even then there are horror stories of abuse and burnout.

Ideally we'd be paying all workers the highest wages and letting them move where they please, but doing so would also cause hyperinflation across the world and in turn drive down purchasing power. And cause a horrifying housing crunch in all the desirable areas of the world. The whole system is rigged such that there can ever only be a small % of comfortable people, or else it all falls apart =/

Other options are to pay the lowest common denominator (and lose all your highest paid staff), just don't outsource, or apply a cost of living adjustment, etc. None are perfect or easy solutions.

But salary transparency is a great start, especially while there are still people doing the same job in the same OFFICE, sometimes on the same team, who get paid differently. It at least gets the conversation going so we can start thinking about solutions...

Re: Tech Compensation in Europe

#90
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what has been happening frequently in our company's Slack channels. Highly paid Bay Area developer moves to elsewhere in the US and complains that they got a pay cut. Developer in low cost US city agrees and says they should be paid Bay Area salaries as well. Canadian developer points out that they get paid lower than anyone in the US despite having very high costs of living. Someone else says think o…

> we are very happy with our salaries, I don't understand why this could be. Speaking up publicly is definitely a cultural no no in india. so maybe that's why?

Maybe they believe, rightly or wrongly, that the lower cost of labour is their strongest asset in getting hired by a Western company.

If their salary were raised to SV levels, sure, they might go from "well-off" to "fabulously wealthy" - but they might also get replaced with Western or Eastern European engineers. If they're not absolutely confident of their value to the company, it's not a gamble worth taking.

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