Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X. • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#151

Post by ugh » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:47 PM UTC

artursapek wrote: post #147

ugh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They removed it for all apps that auto save. Save as doesn’t really make sense if an app auto saves and only serves to confuse. You now duplicate and then save.

When I saw the previews for Lion I thought autosave seemed like overkill. When I'm working on anything I "autosave" by reaching over slightly and hitting CMD-S every time I make any small amount of progress. The last time I experienced significant data/progress loss was probably about 3 years ago before I developed this habit. I don't see what problem they're trying to fix.

Well, then you haven’t met my parents. (I also hit Cmd-S frequently but sometimes I honestly forget.)

Auto save is an obvious improvement. The whole saving paradigm sucked and I’m so happy that Apple is tackling it.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#152

Post by wanorris » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:48 PM UTC

theatrus2 wrote: post #97

super_mario wrote: post #79

I currently use OS X for all my work and for personal/home use. But I have to agree with the sentiment. I have had nothing but praise for Apple and OS X up until Lion release. But this year has been a major turning point. End of XServe, end of Apple java, talk of end of Mac Pro and the whole post PC world thing, turning OS X into fisher price phone OS. Honestly, at this point I have to re-think my future and make a p…

Have you seen the new Windows? Microsoft is steamrolling down the "new world" path faster than Apple.

TBD. Incorporating user feedback and giving users options are pretty fundamental to Microsoft's standard operating procedure, so my guess is that the next public preview or beta of Win 8 will force a lot fewer changes on the user.

Really, the desktop mode of Windows 8 doesn't change all that much for power users, it just replaces the utterly broken Start Menu with a fullscreen start screen. It also makes this start screen the default environment for unsophisticated users, which is probably a reasonable move.

Aside from (IIRC) not letting you set a preference to default into the desktop mode on launch, the biggest problem with the start screen for power users was the low information density. This should be a setting, just like the default for Explorer is these giant icons and tiles for files, but you can easily switch it to use "Details" if you like to get real work done.

I think the end result for power users on traditional systems is likely to be that they deliver a desktop mode with only modest differences and a start screen that serves as a much more usable replacement for the start menu (and possibly the option to turn it back off). The start screen also provides a better replacement for some other ambient things like the desktop widgets that nobody ever sees because their apps are on top.

Meanwhile, that start screen, set to a lower information density (as was previewed), should be a pretty nifty base interface for tablet users and basic/new desktop users.

I'm sure there will still be some people up in arms, and possibly rightly so if there are some things they don't fix between now and the final release. But Win 8 has the potential to be a significant step forward without being too coercive on people who already have a good workflow in Win 7.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#153

Post by krevis » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:49 PM UTC

artursapek wrote: post #147

ugh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They removed it for all apps that auto save. Save as doesn’t really make sense if an app auto saves and only serves to confuse. You now duplicate and then save.

When I saw the previews for Lion I thought autosave seemed like overkill. When I'm working on anything I "autosave" by reaching over slightly and hitting CMD-S every time I make any small amount of progress. The last time I experienced significant data/progress loss was probably about 3 years ago before I developed this habit. I don't see what problem they're trying to fix.

The problem is: Most people don't do that, especially new computer users. (Or, these days, people who are used to web apps, which don't use command-S.)

They don't learn until they've been burned, probably quite badly. If the computer doesn't HAVE to burn them in the first place, why should it?

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#154

Post by X-Istence » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:50 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #107

DougBTX wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone who knows readline better than me can tell you how to move between words. It's alt+leftArrow and alt+rightArrow. Other useful ones which work in native text boxes: cmd+leftArrow and cmd+rightArrow to move to the start and end of lines in text boxes cmd+upArrow and cmd+downArrow to move to the very top and very bottom ctrl+a and ctrl+e to move to the start and end of paragraphs shift+ any of the above to mov…

alt+left or alt+right doesn't work for me in Terminal out of the box (I usually use iTerm2 where it doesn't work either) - do you need to change any settings (such as emulation, terminal type etc) to get at that?

It works for me right out of the box on a brand new Lion install. No settings have been changed yet.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#155

Post by Tichy » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:52 PM UTC

HSO wrote: post #58

megamark16 wrote: post #39

I came from a windows background, tinkered with Linux for a few years on and off, and when I started my current job I was given a Macbook Pro. After a few months of using it I as so frustrated, and found myself spending more and more time in my Ubuntu virtual machine, that when they were ordering new MBPs for the design team I offered to give mine up to a designer and buy a ThinkPad, thus saving the company over $1,0…

Suum cuique but some of your concerns really aren't: > In OSX you can only resize a window in the bottom right corner, in Ubuntu I can resize from any corner, or I can hold Alt and middle click anywhere near a corner of a window to start resizing it. No more hunting for the resize sweetspot. They changed that in Lion to every corner, every side. And you don't have to press ALT to do it. > When I click the Maximize bu…

I think your comments just highlight the user unfriendlyness. Am I really supposed to enter some cryptic shell command I copied from the internet to be able to see my hidden files?

I can never remember keyboard shortcuts, even for screenshots I have to Google every time because I make them only infrequently.

Instead of buying an alternative file manager, why not just install another OS...

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#156

Post by Lewisham » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

Having had a "I really am starting to dislike Mac OS X, but Windows 8 looks pretty good!" revelation, I started to use Windows 7. I came back after about a week and told Mac OS X I'd never leave it again. I reinstalled Windows 7 about 2 or 3 times, lots of weird, inexplicable errors, one of which required a Microsoft FixIt program to run as there were some "corrupt registry keys". Gosh, it was not good.

That said, I agree that Mac OS X is not getting better. It needs to change. Everything since about 10.3 to today has been fairly incremental, and OS X is showing its age (ever wonder why Apple never changed to OS XI? It's because they're all the same...).

It's also showing that it doesn't have any real push at Cupertino to get better. No-one is driving OS X. Hardware is being driven by Johny Ive, software was arguably being pushed by Jobs, but it's clear that he was only interested in iOS for years. I'd note that iOS is going the same way as Mac OS X: stagnating in the face of competition that is doing more interesting things (amazingly, that competition is Microsoft!).

I feel like Apple is a company that rests on its laurels until the market practically forces it to change. The change that's coming for Mac OS X is that it will go away altogether. I think Steve hated it, and was waiting for the time when they could sell you iOS only. The only reason they keep Mac OS X around is for developers, and Apple aren't exactly known for making them happy.

Microsoft's dual-paradigm Windows 8 shows it's not that crazy. I think Mac OS X has an expiry date of about 5 years from now.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#157

Post by egypturnash » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:54 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #120

Jakob wrote: post #109

If you don't like MacOS zooming and maximizing behavior, i recommend divvy [0] it has a heavy price tag but fixes those issues completely. [0] http://mizage.com/#macdivvy

$14 USD for something which is standard in most Linux desktop environments? (And is probably standard in Windows, but I can't remember.) This is exactly what people complain about. Yes, this stuff can be done, but you need to set a bunch of options via the command line (no problem, but annoying if you have lots of stuff you want tweaked); then set a bunch of program options; then install a bunch of apps (some of whic…

Why do you turn your Mac on and off all the time? Sleep works fine. Just close the lid and stuff it in your bag, then open it up again. Yes I know it never worked on Windows. It works on a Mac.* The only reason I reboot is for an OS update or for the occasional installer that's too stupid to just launch the services it just threw into the "start this at launch" system.

* well eeeevery now and then shit gets in the way and breaks it, upgrading in place to Lion introduced some heisenbugs with regards to using my Air closed with an external monitor, but they vanished after a reinstall. And this was the first time I'd had sleep problems in the entire decade I've been using Macs.

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#158

Post by willifred » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

shadowfiend wrote: post #8

There may be a good point hiding there, but I don't think he made it particularly well. He argues that OS X is getting worse. His specific complaint was that he couldn't find the Library folder to delete his mail. Two things to keep in mind: first off, people who set up Mail extremely rarely will want to delete their email. So on the list of use cases to optimize for, that one lives near the bottom of the ladder. Sec…

I was left wondering why didn't he just export his mailbox. Or add his GMail account to Mail.app and just drag and drop his old inbox into his new Google inbox. There is absolutely no 'lock-in' with Apple's Mail client.

The strangest part was the line about how there were 'many things worse in Snow Leopard than in Leopard.' There was hardly anything different about Snow Leopard from a user's perspective, the things that did change were pretty hard to complain about (smaller application file sizes, Microsoft Exchange support, and um... what else was there?). From a developer's perspective, Snow Leopard was a vast improvement. Just about the only 'bad' thing about it was the end of the line for the PPC.

Emotions about Apple run so high, it's hard not to think of this as trashing one product (OS X) because of negative feelings about mostly unrelated products (iOS, the App Store, the Apple brand in general).

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#159

Post by sukuriant » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #156

Having had a "I really am starting to dislike Mac OS X, but Windows 8 looks pretty good!" revelation, I started to use Windows 7. I came back after about a week and told Mac OS X I'd never leave it again. I reinstalled Windows 7 about 2 or 3 times, lots of weird, inexplicable errors, one of which required a Microsoft FixIt program to run as there were some "corrupt registry keys". Gosh, it was not good. That said, I…

What on earth did you do to make Windows start having "weird, inexplicable errors"? And, why do I never have these problems?

Re: Tim O'Reilly: I am really starting to hate Mac OS X.

#160

Post by pkamb » Sat, Nov 12, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

I haven't upgraded to Lion, and likely never will, because they removed the single best feature of OS X, "all-windows" Expose with no stacking into app bundles.

Default Expose was terrible in Snow Leopard too (strict grid layout vs. the old natural spatial layout) but at least then there was a hack to get the old version back: http://superuser.com/questions/118424/old-leopard-expose-on-...