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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#301

Post by adrianmsmith »

dylan604 wrote: post #132
solarkraft wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Current-day Ford Motor having to go begging to China - for a major, iron-based component needed to produce more cars - that is laughable, and beyond pathetic. They're lucky China is answering. They're incredibly late to the EV game; considering that they're doing remarkably well.

>They're incredibly late to the EV game; considering that they're doing remarkably well. When you're not the trailblazer, it's easy to make catch-up progress to those that went before you in much much less time. Why this is constantly a source of amazement is funny to me. By the time Ford got involved, the path was no longer a beaten down path, it was fully paved 8-lane highway. Instead trying to figure out how to ma…

> When you're not the trailblazer, it's easy to make catch-up progress to those that went before you in much much less time. Why this is constantly a source of amazement is funny to me.

That sounds logical but it doesn't often actually happen that way, which is why I think there is amazement the few times it does.

For example, Nokia could have just caught up with Apple after they released the iPhone? Motorola etc. could have just caught up with Nokia in the 90s when Nokia made phones people actually wanted? Apple of the 90s could have just caught up with Microsoft and Windows right?

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#302

Post by b112 »

freemint wrote: post #282
b112 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do peopke always ignore the range, and specs, of the three separate car brand's H2 range, when making claims like this? You're wrong. And claims of energy loss!! Sure, no loss to heat in batteries? And batteries lose charge if they sit idle!

There is some loss in batteries but like we can measure things and hydrogen comes out way short in terms for miles driven per kWh of electricity in the grid.

No, it doesn't.

How do I know this? Because you haven't even specified where the h2 came from.

There is power generation from Ng, and there is h2 from Ng. Which do you think is most effective?

Ng -> steam generator -> power transmission -> charging loss

Or, Ng -> h2, delivery, fuel cell (fuel cells are highly efficient)

As an aside:

https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicl...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#303

Post by b112 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #141
b112 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://news.hydroquebec.com/en/press-releases/1667/hydro-que... This is just a start, Hydro Quebec will expand production if demand comes.

The entire world is gearing up to produce green Hydrogen in staggering quantities. It won't be used for wheeled vehicles though. https://www.alliedmarketresearch.com/green-hydrogen-market

https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/electric-vehicl...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#304

Post by martin_bech »

93po wrote: post #223
martin_bech wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the infrastructure needed would be bonkers, and creating fuelibg stations is not really a solved problem. You also loose a big amount of energy converting from electric to hydrogen and back. The cars themselves almost always have low storage because the tanks are very big. Hydrogen car performance is also a lot lower then pure EV.

Fueling stations are a solved problem. There are compact, modular, on-site hydrogen generators designed for installation in places like gas stations. I recently met the founder of this company: https://genh2hydrogen.com/ that is doing exactly this - they're currently taking pre-orders and looking for final funding, but they have the engineering and prototyping in place. The Department of Energy even offers interest-f…

That looks promising, but the costs are still way higher then putting in EV chargers, and you can set up EV charging at home, for almost no cost.

Again the scale of hydrogen fueling stations needed would be massive

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#305

Post by SigmundA »

rblatz wrote: post #185
SigmundA wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LFP Also has much more cycle life and can be cycled 0-100% with much less degradation than NMC meaning a much longer lasting battery. The LFP Tesla it is recommended to charge to 100% always rather than only doing 80% except on long trips on the NMC Teslas. LFP is also safer with much less chance for thermal runaway. So safer, cheaper, longer lasting, easier material sourcing, only downside is lower energy density (a…

Tesla recommends charging to 100% because otherwise it has trouble accurately estimating the vehicle range and battery state of charge.

Not like they are just using battery voltage for SOC, they are coulomb counting with a shunt, so you only need to charge to 100% once in a while to account for drift.

LFP gets 2x the cycle count at 100%-0% as a NMC does at 80%-20%. Due to its lower cell voltage it has less voltage driven aging than NMC.

Elon: "I’d personally slightly opt for iron pack, as it wants to be charged to 100%, whereas nickel prefers ~90%."

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1431040308943364097?lang...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#306

Post by SigmundA »

manmal wrote: post #233
SigmundA wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LFP Also has much more cycle life and can be cycled 0-100% with much less degradation than NMC meaning a much longer lasting battery. The LFP Tesla it is recommended to charge to 100% always rather than only doing 80% except on long trips on the NMC Teslas. LFP is also safer with much less chance for thermal runaway. So safer, cheaper, longer lasting, easier material sourcing, only downside is lower energy density (a…

There’s also a downside to LFP batteries: They charge significantly slower. There was a report in Germany about Teslas with LFP packs only achieving 73kW on average. For some trips this means 50% longer charging times.

I believe there was an issue with earlier software but current models meet or exceed the NCA batteries in charge rate with a 80kw average. Also 73kw is not 50% slower.

https://insideevs.com/news/514857/mic-tesla-model3-srp-charg...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#307

Post by jsjohnst »

iasay wrote: post #130
jsjohnst wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And having two cars is too expensive as well. Maybe so, but the average American family has about 2 cars. Lots of sources for that, but here’s one from top of search results: https://housegrail.com/how-many-cars-does-the-average-americ...

America is not the world and is not the entire market.

> America is not the world and is not the entire market.

Show me where I said or even implied that? Why must you argue and pick battles with everyone? Maybe time for a break?

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#308

Post by jsjohnst »

adrianN wrote: post #299
turtlebits wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs aren't for everyone, especially if you have long range requirements. My daily work commute is under 6 miles round trip. That said, 20% degradation after 10 years isn't a huge deal for me. I'm sure in that time, battery replace/refurbishment will be much cheaper. There is a company in Oregan that will replace a 40kwh Leaf pack for $7000 .

Just out of curiosity: is a car really the best option for a 6 mile round trip? That's a distance where I'd consider walking.

> Just out of curiosity: is a car really the best option for a 6 mile round trip? That's a distance where I'd consider walking.

Walking!? So 1.5-2hrs each way to get to work? On really hot or cold days, that’s going to be torturous. Had you suggested riding a bike or maybe a scooter/moped I’d have not said anything, but suggesting folks walk that distance felt a bit off the mark.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#309

Post by ericmay »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #166
ericmay wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could solve that problem pretty easily by just not relying on cars.

Solving for battery chemistry is cheaper and faster than rebuilding all of America (outside of a few metros where cars aren’t needed) around mass transit and walkability. Personally, I would love if urban planning was structured in a way so that all new development was anti-car, and redevelopment slowly transitioned away from prioritizing automobiles, but that doesn’t appear to be in the cards.

> Solving for battery chemistry is cheaper and faster than rebuilding all of America (outside of a few metros where cars aren’t needed) around mass transit and walkability.

I don't think it's an either-or thing. I think we can have long lasting and high quality electric cars and also build so that we don't have to rely on cars as much or at all. A lot of people think that reducing reliance on cars means building skyscrapers and density like Manhattan, but it actually means building medium density mixed-use development where biking and walking and perhaps a streetcar are how you accomplish 90%+ of your day-to-day mobility needs. Then you have a car for when you need a car. This means you don't take a car to a grocery store that's half a mile away, you walk or bike. It means you don't take a car to a grocery store that's half a mile away because you have a small grocery store in your neighborhood that has everything you need for day-to-day living (you don't need to stock 16 different brands of cereal).

It also has some nice benefits where you can better participate in your local government or other civic institutions. One of the other insidious problems created by automobile-only infrastructure is that it weakens society. You can't protest when you have to figure out where to park first. You can't meet your local representative when you have to pay to park and it's a 30 minute drive each way. Etc.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#310

Post by ericmay »

glial wrote: post #256
zeristor wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less car crash deaths too. But society will disintegrate if we move away from using cars, as opposed to disintegrating if we keep using them.

> society will disintegrate if we move away from using cars why?

Because we've intentionally designed it so that we have to rely on cars or else we can't function, which puts us at the mercy of other countries for our day-to-day existence. If we can't get cheap oil, we can't function because of this intentional fragility.
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