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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#71

Post by iasay »

rightbyte wrote: post #61
iasay wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want a car that can be used only for those tasks leaving you to seek other forms of transport for leisure and family? The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.

The main cost for cheap 2nd hand cars is the fuel in my experience. So you can have a cheap fuel commuter car and a "real" car for trips and towing your boat. Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.

Yeah but you can manage the fuel within your cash flow. Difficult to get credit and manage the purchase of a large expensive car. And having two cars is too expensive as well.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#72

Post by kissiel »

bonzini wrote: post #62
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

10 kWh is less than 40 miles / 60 km. It's good enough for grocery shopping but it would be akin to always running with your fuel light on and with 1/20th of the fueling stations (ok you would charge at nighttime). I wouldn't be comfortable with that unless I am going to pay for it half of an equivalent ICE car.

I've used a PHEV with 40km of range on electric. It was 100% enough for doing daily driving. I would love to see a small town-oriented not shitboxy EV that's cheaper than fiat500/mini-e.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#73

Post by silversmith »

NickNameNick wrote: post #57
cjdell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not be significantly easier if we're using 4 or 5 independent modules instead of a giant monolith? Aren't cars routinely lifted into the air when being serviced? I understand that the structure of the car's body may be suboptimal and require extra reinforcement but if we're really serious about EV adoption and reducing battery cost then perhaps a trade-off worth making?

If you want the batteries to be removable, I suspect the extra couplings in the water coolant loop would make that problematic.

Check out how tractor hydraulic attachments handle liquid couplings. And hydraulic systems work at much higher pressure than simple coolant loops.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#74

Post by zoltar »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

I wish there was more enthusiasm around this tech. The Hyundai N Vision 74 is the first concept car I've wanted to test drive in a long while.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#75

Post by tokamak-teapot »

squarefoot wrote: post #50
tokamak-teapot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possib…

> With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. That would however subject the smaller battery to more charge/discharge cycles for obtaining the same mileage. Wouldn't that shorten its life?

I’d be happy to have a shorter life on my small, cheap battery because it should be cheap to replace.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#76

Post by wpearse »

iasay wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

You miss the point. Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost. My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday. When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistica…

My EV is 1/10th of the cost to run and maintain than my diesel car. I’m more than happy to spend an extra 20-30 min charging on a 4 hour drive when I choose to drive the EV.

My diesel has also done just over 340,000km and it’s pretty shot. Hard to start on cold mornings and I’ve had to sort out some leaky injectors and seized joints on the driveshaft. There’s another couple of hundred thousand kilometres left at best.

The EV is coming up to 100,000km and it stills drives just as spritely as the day I got it. The battery is showing 100% state of health and I’m convinced it’ll happily do a million kilometres or more.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#77

Post by pharmakom »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

I really think the push for hydrogen (highly impractical at scale) by the right wing press is part of fossil fuel industry attempts to spread fud around battery evs.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#78

Post by jillesvangurp »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #52
curiousgal wrote: post #41

> Ctrl - F recycle > 0 matches It feels like we are trading one poison for another from a climate change perspective. Just passing down the buck.

You are correct. Nobody is recycling LFP, because there is nothing valuable to recycle.

Actually, the vast majority of LFP batteries are still perfectly fine and not in any need of recycling. There's indeed nothing to recycle yet. At least not a lot. And it will be some time before that starts changing.

Recycling of failing batteries and discarded cells that did not survive quality control in the factory is of course a thing. These don't end up in land fills. The materials inside them are way to valuable for that.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#79

Post by rightbyte »

iasay wrote: post #71
rightbyte wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main cost for cheap 2nd hand cars is the fuel in my experience. So you can have a cheap fuel commuter car and a "real" car for trips and towing your boat. Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.

Yeah but you can manage the fuel within your cash flow. Difficult to get credit and manage the purchase of a large expensive car. And having two cars is too expensive as well.

True. The setup kinda requires that you need two cars in the first place.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#80

Post by ericmay »

influxmoment wrote: post #55
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

This is a very forward thinking move for 2018. I look forward to us all driving Chinese BYD cars at this rate of innovation

We could solve that problem pretty easily by just not relying on cars.
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