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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#31

Post by cjdell »

clouddrover wrote: post #21
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

> I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. NIO is: https://insideevs.com/news/591837/nio-battery-swapping-stati... https://insideevs.com/news/392660/nio-battery-swap-loved-by-... https://insideevs.com/news/583809/nio-baas-battery-swapping-... https://insideevs.com/news/596640/nio-500kw-ultra-rapid-char... > Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter batte…

Thanks.

> 10 kWh wouldn't get you very far in a car.

Tell that to Chevy Volt owners. It's amazing how much all electric driving can be achieved with just a little bit of careful driving. I barely use my range extender now, it's just for the odd long trip.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#32

Post by noja »

klondike_ wrote: post #30
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Modern EV design has the batteries integrated into the structural frame of the car. This is because the batteries are the heaviest part of the car, so you want them to be close to the ground and secure from impact. This also makes it very inconvenient to replace. Lots of companies (even Tesla) have attempted the replaceable battery concept but none have been able to make it work efficiently.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/archive/august-1897-th...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#33

Post by ben_bai »

adrianN wrote: post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

15-20kWh/100km is a gasoline equivalent of about 1,5-2l/100km. At 130km/h there is little room for improvement (thinner wheels, better aerodynamics). All the individual electric components in the car are like ~98% efficient.

I guess 10kWh/100km is possible at 90km/h on cruisecontroll behind a big truck.

EVs biggest problem are the inefficiencies in the electric grid, there is like a 50% margin for improvement.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#34

Post by antisthenes »

discordance wrote: post #24

Hopefully in 10 years all of these car batteries with 50% capacity left can be deployed as residential batteries for peanuts.

You can already DIY battery packs from used EVs in order to build a residential whole-house backup.

It's not peanuts, but getting very close to it.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#35

Post by kryptiskt »

klondike_ wrote: post #30
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Modern EV design has the batteries integrated into the structural frame of the car. This is because the batteries are the heaviest part of the car, so you want them to be close to the ground and secure from impact. This also makes it very inconvenient to replace. Lots of companies (even Tesla) have attempted the replaceable battery concept but none have been able to make it work efficiently.

NIO is doing battery swapping at scale in China. Here's a random article about how it works: https://insideevs.com/news/591837/nio-battery-swapping-stati...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#36

Post by ZephyrOhm »

cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Profit motive. Planned obsolescence and the need to buy another within a certain time period.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#37

Post by clouddrover »

adrianN wrote: post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

> Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving

Mercedes did in the Vision EQXX:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-vi...

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/mercedes-vision-eqxx-ev-c...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS1SBhBjAHY

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#38

Post by ngrilly »

adrianN wrote: post #27
iasay wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

Is it mainly because cars are idle/off most of the time, unlike laptops and smartphones, or is there something else at play here?

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#39

Post by iasay »

adrianN wrote: post #27
iasay wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

You miss the point.

Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost.

My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday.

When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistically what most people will have to spend on, you’re looking at the 160 mile range leaf. With an 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user. I couldn’t even drive to see my mother in it without charging twice on the way.

I will not own an EV as the incidental risk trade off is too high and the up front cost of a new EV is too high.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#40

Post by cjdell »

klondike_ wrote: post #30
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Modern EV design has the batteries integrated into the structural frame of the car. This is because the batteries are the heaviest part of the car, so you want them to be close to the ground and secure from impact. This also makes it very inconvenient to replace. Lots of companies (even Tesla) have attempted the replaceable battery concept but none have been able to make it work efficiently.

Would it not be significantly easier if we're using 4 or 5 independent modules instead of a giant monolith? Aren't cars routinely lifted into the air when being serviced?

I understand that the structure of the car's body may be suboptimal and require extra reinforcement but if we're really serious about EV adoption and reducing battery cost then perhaps a trade-off worth making?

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