Live data from Hacker News

Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

axios.com

11–20 of 328 posts

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#11
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how a tariff on larger vehicles means that the US market can't switch to smaller vehicles. Isn't it even the opposite because smaller cheaper cars can be directly imported from overseas? I agree the US market is incapable of switching to smaller cars in the near future, but i doubt the Chicken Tax has much to do with it.

The chicken tax is a tax on small trucks, not large ones

For me a small car is a three door coupé like the Renault Zoe, not a "small" truck.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#12
post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

You can make a self driving truck/electric vehicle lane where the speed limit is 80km/h. Paint a green line in the middle of the ev-lane and it should make self driving more easy to implement. Reason for slower speed wind resistance is far less at 80km/h. Energy use is quadratic concerning speed. So make a movie streaming ev-lane.

Also one could fit cars with rail gear and run them on rail tracks on the highway which would lessen the tire friction roll resistance losses. Technology for allowing cars to run on rail tracks already exists for railway maintenance cars. Self driving on rail track is also much easier to implement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road–rail_vehicle

Safety from car crashes would also be far safer at 80km/h than higher speeds.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#13
I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries.

Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#14
post #6

Happy Ford is using more environmentally friendly Iron based LFP batteries. Cobalt in more traditional batteries is neurotoxic for humans and the mining of Cobalt is dirty. Very good that a large car manufacturer such as Ford is switching to Iron LFP. You should be able to fast charge LFP which will compensate for the lesser energy density. Since lfp is more stable they should be able to take the charging better than…

Having driven the 2021 Model 3 Standard Range with LFP Batteries from China: It charged much slower and had worse performance degradation in winter. This might be due to the software limitations Tesla put on the BMC, but since then it didn't improve by much. I wouldn't expect LFP be the panacea, but it should make EVs more affordable and is definetly in the "good enough" range for most families.

LFP is supposed to be less bad in winter. So that it isn't kinda confuses me.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#15
post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Like these mopeds with one or two swappable batteries https://electrek.co/2021/11/01/gogoro-electric-scooters-swap...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#16
post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

This idea reminds me of LiGo batteries (https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/ligo-batteries....).

I think when it comes to the car this idea could be viable but I think the risk is potential change with the weight distribution. You could probably have some weights that are replaced with batteries when you upgrade to keep the weight constant but then you are reducing your range.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#17
post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap.

I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#18
post #2

I don’t think heavier batteries with less battery life are gonna do much for Americans. Not unless we can get into small vehicles real quick- and given that the chicken tax has been imposed by executive order since 1964 I don’t see that happening.

I think the smaller EVs currently on the market can fill a niche in America for city commuters, but only if they're cheap, and I think you'd be stretching their limits for faster highway commuting or longer travel. The sedan sized EV is I think the smartest choice for EVs in the American market, but they're still too expensive.

Plug in series hybrids might be a good stop-gap, as they're cheaper and solve some of the range and size issues current EVs have. You can have a smaller car, still capable of good speed and range, and at half to a third of the cost of an equivalent performance EV.

For anyone not aware of the term, a series hybrid is an EV drivetrain that has a smaller battery and an auxiliary petrol generator onboard to fill the battery if it gets low, or you demand more power from it. At first thought, that sounds ridiculous, but we're talking about compromises to fit specialty requirements here, and in that context they make a lot of sense. (also good EV conversion potential, since all you do is upgrade the battery and ditch the petrol engine once battery prices make sense)

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#19
post #12
post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

You can make a self driving truck/electric vehicle lane where the speed limit is 80km/h. Paint a green line in the middle of the ev-lane and it should make self driving more easy to implement. Reason for slower speed wind resistance is far less at 80km/h. Energy use is quadratic concerning speed. So make a movie streaming ev-lane. Also one could fit cars with rail gear and run them on rail tracks on the highway which…

Before you put them on rails, it might be easier to add panthographs to charge from overhead wires while driving in electric lane.

Germany has a short section of highway testing that setup for trucks

https://www.sustainabletruckvan.com/pantographs-for-trucks-s...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#20
post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high.

Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possible to design a system for slotting it in that doesn’t require me to physically lift its weight.

I’d also be happy to drive into somewhere local that rents me that long range battery and slots it in with machinery designed for the purpose.

Post reply on HN