Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

axios.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 328 posts

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#21

Post by clouddrover »

cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

> I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries.

NIO is:

https://insideevs.com/news/591837/nio-battery-swapping-stati...

https://insideevs.com/news/392660/nio-battery-swap-loved-by-...

https://insideevs.com/news/583809/nio-baas-battery-swapping-...

https://insideevs.com/news/596640/nio-500kw-ultra-rapid-char...

> Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery

10 kWh wouldn't get you very far in a car. In a scooter or quadracycle 10 kWh can be useful.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#22

Post by alexisread »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #20
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possib…

...say like a battery trailer with a CCS socket, and with extra storage as well, for long journeys?

Low tech FTW.

Smartrail is still a better soln but we have to be realistic here.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#23

Post by adrianN »

acd wrote: post #12
adrianN wrote: post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

You can make a self driving truck/electric vehicle lane where the speed limit is 80km/h. Paint a green line in the middle of the ev-lane and it should make self driving more easy to implement. Reason for slower speed wind resistance is far less at 80km/h. Energy use is quadratic concerning speed. So make a movie streaming ev-lane. Also one could fit cars with rail gear and run them on rail tracks on the highway which…

If people wanted to travel 80km/h they could do so today. It is well known that going slower improves fuel efficiency. I'm asking for things like improved drivetrain efficiency and better aerodynamics.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#25

Post by wongarsu »

ehnto wrote: post #18
witheld wrote: post #2

I don’t think heavier batteries with less battery life are gonna do much for Americans. Not unless we can get into small vehicles real quick- and given that the chicken tax has been imposed by executive order since 1964 I don’t see that happening.

I think the smaller EVs currently on the market can fill a niche in America for city commuters, but only if they're cheap, and I think you'd be stretching their limits for faster highway commuting or longer travel. The sedan sized EV is I think the smartest choice for EVs in the American market, but they're still too expensive. Plug in series hybrids might be a good stop-gap, as they're cheaper and solve some of the…

It's not ridiculous at all, past a certain size basically all diesel vehicles are diesel-electric, meaning they run diesel engines to produce electricity to run electric motors.

All diesel trains do this to avoid needing giant gearboxes, mining trucks use it to cut weight, modern ships use it to enable articulating motors.

Now we are slowly reaching the point where it becomes desirable even for car-sized vehicles.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#26

Post by cjdell »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #20
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possib…

I love the idea of using those extra cells for solar or perhaps renting them.

I can't see why no one is exploring this gap in the market. It might only appeal to nerds at first but that is true with most technologies in their infancy.

We need what is effectively a giant version of a double AA battery. Yes we also need battery management systems and heating/cooling to go with these things but these are solved problems, just not standardised yet.

Please someone take note and do this!

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#27

Post by adrianN »

iasay wrote: post #17
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I would prefer to see this because the current ability to replace batteries in EVs is crap. I’ve owned enough second hand laptops to know what second hand EV ownership is going to feel like.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#28

Post by lazyjones »

adrianN wrote: post #5

How much room for improvement is left on the consumption side? Electric cars seem to require around 15-20kWh/100km. Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h? What are the numbers for city driving like?

> Can we get that below 10 for regular highway driving, say at 130km/h?

Probably not with normal-sized cars.

For the Model 3, the theoretical minimum is 13.8 kW. This increases linearly with drag coefficient and area (as seen from the front). You would have to build a significantly smaller (flatter, narrower) car and improve the drag coefficient (0.2 has been achieved) to get there.

Here's a calculator in German (sorry) for experiments: http://spare-benzin.de/Fahrphysik/Luftwiderstand/Luftwiderst...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#29

Post by jillesvangurp »

witheld wrote: post #2

I don’t think heavier batteries with less battery life are gonna do much for Americans. Not unless we can get into small vehicles real quick- and given that the chicken tax has been imposed by executive order since 1964 I don’t see that happening.

Price and performance are all that matters. Americans like big cars but they also like cheap cars. So, a lot of the big cars on the road aren't necessarily very good cars. They just look big. Because size is the key selling point. Americans buy the biggest car they can afford; not the best or the most economical car.

How do you make a big car move further? Simple, you put a bigger battery in it. Those nice trucks that Ford is producing now come with enormous batteries. The main issue with that is that it drives up the cost and reduces the market size. So, Ford is doing what Tesla is doing: find cheaper/heavier batteries and offer the same product with less range in the lower price segments and reserve the premium batteries for the more expensive models. That way they can sell big cars to people that want to buy the biggest car they can afford. Never mind it will only go for 150 miles or so. You want 300+? Buy a better car. With a lot of the EVs in the market, you can spend tens of thousands of dollars on extended range versions. The difference is mainly the battery size and weight.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#30

Post by klondike_ »

cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

Modern EV design has the batteries integrated into the structural frame of the car. This is because the batteries are the heaviest part of the car, so you want them to be close to the ground and secure from impact. This also makes it very inconvenient to replace.

Lots of companies (even Tesla) have attempted the replaceable battery concept but none have been able to make it work efficiently.

Post reply on HN