Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#281

Post by Markoff » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

znpy wrote: post #102

thrill wrote: post #28

I think they should post salary minimums instead of a range - that huge range is just eye candy. Oh, but not enough people will be interested at the minimum? Then your minimum wasn't good enough and isn't actually the minimum.

> Oh, but not enough people will be interested at the minimum? It's way worse than that. I recently had the displeasure of reading one of the dumbest thread of comments on a linkedin post because the job description did exactly that: mention the minimum salary. It was a job post for a "seo and social media manager" position which can mean a lot of things, can mean everything and can mean nothing, depending on many fa…

well the company should decide if they are looking for fresh graduates or experienced candidates then, judging by 20K seems more likely they don't wanna experienced people or dunno what they really want if they come up with such number

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#282

Post by twawaaay » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

In decades of interviewing and hiring developers I have not seen an actual difference coming from posting salary ranges. I tried many different versions of this.

As a candidate, I do not apply to a thousand different places. I find 3-4 where I would want to work and I do my research before I even apply. I know what they can pay me before I get to talk to them.

As an interviewer I try to stay away from candidates that spray and pray. They probably don't care where they work -- usually a bad sign (except for positions where it truly doesn't matter). They probably also have a problem finding a job -- do I want to play the expensive game of finding out why?

When I meet the candidate the first time, I usually ask if they had a chance to look at our website. I have never hired a person that did not (somehow being disinterested prevents people from being good at what they are doing).

More than that, as a candidate your bargaining power is lowest at the beginning of the process and highest at the end when they had a chance to get to know you and really want to hire you.

And if this is not happening, don't get hired. If you made barely passable impression on your new boss but got hired because they needed a warm body in the chair, your career at the company is almost over before it got even started. First impressions matter and self-fulfilling prophecies are real.

And again, as an interviewer, posting salary ranges is a loose loose for me. If you have posted a range, there is couple of things happening. First, you are loosing ALL candidates that you would gladly pay more than the posted salary range, but now that they see the range they say "Meh" to your posting.

Second, everybody expects to get salary close to the top of the range and will be forever unhappy if they do not. So it is more like you have posted an exact salary you are paying and rather than be flexible you can now pretty much only decide to hire or not hire for this salary.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#283

Post by itronitron » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Your company's location/HQ will significantly impact assumed salary ranges.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#284

Post by ewhanley » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

It feels like there is a data leak built into this test. Imagine ‘better candidate’ sees the posting without salary info. They decide it’s interesting and google ‘salary kokanator’s company’, see the posting with salary info, and decide it meets the bar. Next they either 1) know the salary meets their hurdle and don’t care which posting they apply to or 2) intentionally apply to the posting without salary info in hopes that it keeps salary negotiations open.

Either way, it feels questionable to draw much signal from the process.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#285

Post by srvmshr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #174

lotsofpulp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence points to the assumption of a shortage being wrong. By definition, a shortage of labor sellers means labor sellers have an advantage in negotiations. From what I understand about Japan, even in the tech sector, the quality of life for labor sellers is pretty bad with long hours and not much room for high pay. I imagine if Japanese tech workers has the option of working for employers with compensation off…

Even with an advantage, it takes a concerted effort to push for culture change. Things can get by on inertia for a long time.

That is the main reason IMHO plaguing the work culture. Changes are slow because of inertia & the fact everyone tries to keep a decorum and play nice / polite

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#286

Post by memling » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

time_to_smile wrote: post #113

memling wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the upper bound of your range doesn't exceed $350k there is no chance that any of the senior engineers I know will apply and honestly to get something to think about leaving a job they are moderately happy with you'd have to have that be the lower bound of your range. Outside of SV, that upper-bound is an absolutely wild number.

That's not true at all anymore, at least not for TC. An insane number of startups have IPO'd in the last two years, and even with stock drops a lot of people suddenly have RSUs. In addition the rise in remote work has meant that near SV pay is much easier to obtain. Very few of my friends live in SV and I only know a few who aren't making at least that amount at the senior level. That number is not at all wild for an…

> That's not true at all anymore, at least not for TC.

OP was discussing salary range, not total comp--but I'd be a little surprised to find that even TC at the $350k range at the top outside of SV firms is quite high.

I'm not totally persuaded by levels.fyi, but looking at metros at 90th percentile of SWE total comp:

  Bay Area - 425k
  Los Angeles - 325k
  NYC - 343k
  Denver - 298k
  Boston - 273k
  Austin - 268k
  Chicago - 260k
  NoVA / DC - 237k
  Salt Lake City - 221k
  Columbus, OH - 215k
  Phoenix - 213k
  Minneapolis/St Paul - 210k
  Philadelphia - 210k
  Houston - 209k
  Kansas City - 152k

Again, I'm not persuaded that the numbers from Levels are good, but $350k salary at an upper-bound still seems like a high number. $350k TC also seems high--but it's more attainable with RSUs or other equity options.

I'd also be interested to see a breakdown based on the company type. There's room for SWEs in many companies, and the rates might break differently based on whether software is the primary product.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#287

Post by eesmith » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

tfehring wrote: post #31

eesmith wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colorado's already thought of that. https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%239_%20Eq... > Compensation and Benefits to Disclose. Employers must include in each job posting (1) the rate of compensation (or a range thereof), including salary and hourly, piece, or day rate compensation; (2) a general description of any bonuses, commissions, or other compensation; and (3) a general description of all benefits…

> a general description of any bonuses, commissions, or other compensation By my reading, that just means that they have to disclose that equity compensation is available, not the amount of that equity compensation. Contrast that with "the rate of compensation (or a range thereof), including salary and hourly, piece, or day rate compensation," which actually requires a number.

This is far out of my competency. My understanding of the bill is that it's meant to close the wage gap between men and women by increasing salary transparency. https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/default/files/2019a_085_signe... says:

> It is the intent of the general assembly to pass legislation that helps to close the pay gap in Colorado and ensure that employees with similar job duties are paid the same wage rate regardless of sex, or sex plus another protected status.

where "wage rate" is:

> FOR AN EMPLOYEE PAID ON AN HOURLY BASIS, THE HOURLY COMPENSATION PAID TO THE EMPLOYEE PLUS THE VALUE PER HOUR OF ALL OTHER COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS RECEIVED BY THE EMPLOYEE FROM THE EMPLOYER; AND

> (b) FOR AN EMPLOYEE PAID ON A SALARY BASIS, THE TOTAL OF ALL COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS RECEIVED BY THE EMPLOYEE FROM THE EMPLOYER.

Any judge is going to look at the intent in order to help resolve ambiguity in interpretation.

If stock option compensation need only be advertised as "we offer stock options" then my uninformed impression is that that would negate the intent of the bill.

Contact a Colorado lawyer for actual meaningful advice.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#288

Post by BlargMcLarg » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

srvmshr wrote: post #230

cultofmetatron wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

given the sterotype of the overworked salary man, its probably a red flag in that the red flag is "expects to be treated like a human being."

Okay here's the thing: Let me add some details to dispell that "part-myth". Salarymen do have long working hours & have to go along with those office drinking parties etc. But at the same time, they are treated more personally than an American enterprise employee would. Parents sick in old age? Many companies would give cash incentives to support. Buying a house? CEO might extend you a personal credit line or speak t…

There are still some caveats to these things.

Managers becoming patriarchs (or even companies) can change the culture to then make individuals dependent on them. No patriarch, severely restricted options. That's a huge issue in Japan, and it's a huge issue outside Japan as well.

Giving people the stink eye for just mentioning leaving a company makes it easier for malicious companies (black companies in particular) to sink their teeth into naïve individuals. We see this problem in the West as well. We all know employees leave for pretty obvious reasons (and the reason they apply is obvious), but saying anything bad is the #1 sin of any job interview for very, very superficial reasons.

And neither of these are required to keep most of the solely good things.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#289

Post by ROTMetro » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #263

asdff wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These comments are absurd considering farmhands get paid minimum wage to shovel huge pieces of manure

Each person’s opportunity cost is different. A farmhand shoveling huge pieces of manure for minimum wage probably does not have better options, whereas a software developer already earning a few hundred thousand does.

Former software developer now ex-con. I would take this job for $50000. Also acceptable, $30000. Sad reality, I worked way way worse for way less than either of those two dream salary ranges.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#290

Post by itronitron » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #233

pessimizer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you'd be surprised by this. If you were giving away milk, you'd get a better response from an ad that said "Free Milk" than an ad that said "Free Expired Milk," even though the milk you're giving away is expired. You're concealing relevant information in order to sucker in people who have no interest. It's the central mechanism behind "linkbait" headlines. It's just a dark pattern. People who were no…

> you'd get a better response from an ad that said "Free Milk" than an ad that said "Free Expired Milk," But he said he got better candidates with the ad that didn't post salary ranges. If I understand your analogy, that's like (counterintuitively) getting more responses for the expired milk.

They didn't say how the candidates were better. And if the person judging the candidates knows which position description the candidate replied to then they may be applying their own bias when assessing the candidates.